Bregman sure would have looked good at 3rd for the Cards.

[2ninr]

Simply put, you can either support their new strategy for stocking the major league team, or not. But either way, it won't change what this ownership is now doing. I've found I have a lot of interest in the prospect group beyond the top 2 or 3 most people know about. I'm not following the same game I used to. I'm not focusing on players from other teams as potential replacements for declining and underperforming players. If you want to enjoy following the team, that's what you do. If you want to live in the past, than complain and be unhappy. But it won't change it. They aren't going back to trying to buy their core.

[CCard]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

The guy making $35 mil a year with an OPS+ of 100?

Look at his career stats and sneer. Where would he be on the depth chart for the Cards?

You're right. Pay no attention to the stats in front of you. Instead justify your answer by looking at past performance.

Short sample size bias. You have no idea how his entire season will go. I have no real axe to grind here. I'm no huge fan of Bregman. Did the Cubs overpay? Maybe. Probably. But they have a legitimate bat at third base and he just beat the Cards today. At least they're trying to win. The Cards ownership made it clear from the get go that they want to lose. I can't support that bull.

And that is exactly what you DON'T do when you don't have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players ready to "win now."

AFTER the Cardinals have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players in place, maybe then you can think about paying/overpaying for that last piece or two that you need to "win now."

But it would just be foolish to for them to lock themselves into a deal like Bregman's (who is likely to continue declining in the mid-to-late 30s) now when they aren't ready to compete.

Spending has to be smart and timely if a team like the Cardinals is going to win another WS anytime soon.

Saving BILLIONAIRE owners money is the primary concern. Because competing yearly is too much effort. Meanwhile, teams like the Cubs will probably get their tickets punched and have a chance to win the whole thing. You must be so happy.

It's not about "saving billionaire owners money." It's about acknowledging that this team is going to have a BUDGET - every single team, business, government, etc. has a BUDGET - whether you think they should have a budget or not. And even if/when that budget goes back up to $170, $180, etc. million, you don't want them to be holding bad contracts that they signed one, two, three years prior just to "do something!" to act like they were "competing."

You don't deal in reality.

1. Who benefits from cutting payroll? Ownership.
2. The budget shouldn't be $98 million dollars....ever. The only purpose is losing.
3. You, I or ownership can never know whether a contract will be bad. It's a
(bleep) shoot. Nobody could have expected the cliff that the co mvp's would have
fallen off of. They just locked up Wetherholt long term. What if he fails? No one
knows for sure. His career could end tomorrow.
4.This team should be spending double what they're spending on talent. It would look
like a different team if that was true. You know it, I know it and any sane person
knows it.
5.The goal should be to compete every year. Not tank to gather breadcrumbs for your
mythical pie. It's a slap in the face to fans, a travesty to the game and a flawed
philosophy that some like you seem to have some kind of fetish for.

If you don't want to win every year then why field a team every year. Just forfeit all the games until you can build up your crumbs. It's asinine. Reality? I would argue that my point of view is reality and yours is a fantasy. Even after years of suffering you can offer no guarantee of winning anything. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it.

What you should know is that when you sign a player like Bregman in his 30s to a five year contract, you are hoping he goes:

Year 1 - good
Year 2 - good
Year 3 - average
Year 4 - bad
Year 5 - bad

so that the contract you signed him to doesn't look terrible in total. But you need to be ready to "win now" in Year 1-3 of that contract, not Year 4-5.

That's why is makes no sense for the Cardinals - who clearly aren't ready to "win now" - to invest in players like Bregman, even if they are good for a year or two. Because by the time the young core of players IS ready to compete, the Bregmans you signed three year ago will probably be in their "bad" years at the end of those contracts - and then you won't be able to really compete then either.

You sign your Bregmans AFTER you have rebuilt your young core players so you combine that young core which is ready to "win now" with likely the best years of your big FA signings. That is how you actually compete.

Mitch...."Let's lose now! Let's lose a lot for years! Then one day our cheap as dirt owners can spend very little on a mythical juggernaut! Then when it doesn't happen, we can do the process all over again! Isn't this fun!"

No, it's not fun. It's stupid and a slap in the face to fans that work hard for their money and are expected to support that tripe.

[CCard]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

He only looks good against us. He’s hitting over .400 vs us in July and .177 vs everyone else.

True that, but you have to add in the games against "us". Also, he has a track record. Did the Cubs overpay? Most likely. But I'd rather the team try and overpay than tank and not even try to win. Wouldn't you?

So you loved the Fowler contract huh? And the mikolas and Matt carpenter extensions were really great because they were a lot of money and showed they were trying lol

At the team it was suspect but better than the alternative. He was part of a World Series Championship. Very few players ever live up to expectations. At one time some of the fans wanted to get rid of Christian Yelich in Milwaukee. But they were very happy with the first few seasons of mvp like play.

You said you would’ve traded Donovan unless he signed an extension. Why? He had two more years

It's not the gotcha you thought it was. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

[C-Unit]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

The guy making $35 mil a year with an OPS+ of 100?

Look at his career stats and sneer. Where would he be on the depth chart for the Cards?

You're right. Pay no attention to the stats in front of you. Instead justify your answer by looking at past performance.

Short sample size bias. You have no idea how his entire season will go. I have no real axe to grind here. I'm no huge fan of Bregman. Did the Cubs overpay? Maybe. Probably. But they have a legitimate bat at third base and he just beat the Cards today. At least they're trying to win. The Cards ownership made it clear from the get go that they want to lose. I can't support that bull.

And that is exactly what you DON'T do when you don't have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players ready to "win now."

AFTER the Cardinals have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players in place, maybe then you can think about paying/overpaying for that last piece or two that you need to "win now."

But it would just be foolish to for them to lock themselves into a deal like Bregman's (who is likely to continue declining in the mid-to-late 30s) now when they aren't ready to compete.

Spending has to be smart and timely if a team like the Cardinals is going to win another WS anytime soon.

Saving BILLIONAIRE owners money is the primary concern. Because competing yearly is too much effort. Meanwhile, teams like the Cubs will probably get their tickets punched and have a chance to win the whole thing. You must be so happy.

It's not about "saving billionaire owners money." It's about acknowledging that this team is going to have a BUDGET - every single team, business, government, etc. has a BUDGET - whether you think they should have a budget or not. And even if/when that budget goes back up to $170, $180, etc. million, you don't want them to be holding bad contracts that they signed one, two, three years prior just to "do something!" to act like they were "competing."

You don't deal in reality.

1. Who benefits from cutting payroll? Ownership.
2. The budget shouldn't be $98 million dollars....ever. The only purpose is losing.
3. You, I or ownership can never know whether a contract will be bad. It's a
(bleep) shoot. Nobody could have expected the cliff that the co mvp's would have
fallen off of. They just locked up Wetherholt long term. What if he fails? No one
knows for sure. His career could end tomorrow.
4.This team should be spending double what they're spending on talent. It would look
like a different team if that was true. You know it, I know it and any sane person
knows it.
5.The goal should be to compete every year. Not tank to gather breadcrumbs for your
mythical pie. It's a slap in the face to fans, a travesty to the game and a flawed
philosophy that some like you seem to have some kind of fetish for.

If you don't want to win every year then why field a team every year. Just forfeit all the games until you can build up your crumbs. It's asinine. Reality? I would argue that my point of view is reality and yours is a fantasy. Even after years of suffering you can offer no guarantee of winning anything. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it.

What you should know is that when you sign a player like Bregman in his 30s to a five year contract, you are hoping he goes:

Year 1 - good
Year 2 - good
Year 3 - average
Year 4 - bad
Year 5 - bad

so that the contract you signed him to doesn't look terrible in total. But you need to be ready to "win now" in Year 1-3 of that contract, not Year 4-5.

That's why is makes no sense for the Cardinals - who clearly aren't ready to "win now" - to invest in players like Bregman, even if they are good for a year or two. Because by the time the young core of players IS ready to compete, the Bregmans you signed three year ago will probably be in their "bad" years at the end of those contracts - and then you won't be able to really compete then either.

You sign your Bregmans AFTER you have rebuilt your young core players so you combine that young core which is ready to "win now" with likely the best years of your big FA signings. That is how you actually compete.

Mitch...."Let's lose now! Let's lose a lot for years! Then one day our cheap as dirt owners can spend very little on a mythical juggernaut! Then when it doesn't happen, we can do the process all over again! Isn't this fun!"

No, it's not fun. It's stupid and a slap in the face to fans that work hard for their money and are expected to support that tripe.

It's people like you obsessing over the owner and bringing it into every topic. You assume every pragmatic baseball discussion that doesn't involve incessant complaining must be just white-knighting for the owner.

You have to imagine that every front office in the game understands most of their fans think like you. Remember when the Cardinals didn't pull off the Evan Longoria trade (when SF got him). All the fans like you complained like that was the last straw and spoke with this tunnel vision about how that move and that move alone proved that the organization "didn't care about the fans." I remember the outcry. Think about how laughable that idea sounded after Longoria went on to age poorly in SF, as many of us expected who weren't just clamoring for the name on the back like a kid sitting in the shopping cart pointing at everything they see on the shelf.

So a front office knows that the majority of the fans are irrational and impulsive, like most Americans. If you are going to run for president in this country and win, you aren't going to be able to win the majority of the vote unless you can manage to have a portion of loudmouth, irrational, impulsive idiots as part of your constituency. Because it's the largest group. Front office people, politicians, business people all have to know that. They know that there will always be arm chair fans as they operate the team. And they know you'll be right there when they win, as the fans come out every time there is a winning stretch of baseball.

Bregman in no way was a fit in St Louis. Nobody even knew Walker was going to be an all-star. So the team was not expected to be very good. Bregman and who else? (and I'm sure you would love to tell us who else was on your Christmas list).

You want to develop these young players, watch them become all-stars, and then you can't afford to pay them as arbitration goes up because you have Bregman and every other 35+ year old you clamor for taking up the payroll?

[CCard]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

The guy making $35 mil a year with an OPS+ of 100?

Look at his career stats and sneer. Where would he be on the depth chart for the Cards?

You're right. Pay no attention to the stats in front of you. Instead justify your answer by looking at past performance.

Short sample size bias. You have no idea how his entire season will go. I have no real axe to grind here. I'm no huge fan of Bregman. Did the Cubs overpay? Maybe. Probably. But they have a legitimate bat at third base and he just beat the Cards today. At least they're trying to win. The Cards ownership made it clear from the get go that they want to lose. I can't support that bull.

And that is exactly what you DON'T do when you don't have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players ready to "win now."

AFTER the Cardinals have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players in place, maybe then you can think about paying/overpaying for that last piece or two that you need to "win now."

But it would just be foolish to for them to lock themselves into a deal like Bregman's (who is likely to continue declining in the mid-to-late 30s) now when they aren't ready to compete.

Spending has to be smart and timely if a team like the Cardinals is going to win another WS anytime soon.

Saving BILLIONAIRE owners money is the primary concern. Because competing yearly is too much effort. Meanwhile, teams like the Cubs will probably get their tickets punched and have a chance to win the whole thing. You must be so happy.

It's not about "saving billionaire owners money." It's about acknowledging that this team is going to have a BUDGET - every single team, business, government, etc. has a BUDGET - whether you think they should have a budget or not. And even if/when that budget goes back up to $170, $180, etc. million, you don't want them to be holding bad contracts that they signed one, two, three years prior just to "do something!" to act like they were "competing."

You don't deal in reality.

1. Who benefits from cutting payroll? Ownership.
2. The budget shouldn't be $98 million dollars....ever. The only purpose is losing.
3. You, I or ownership can never know whether a contract will be bad. It's a
(bleep) shoot. Nobody could have expected the cliff that the co mvp's would have
fallen off of. They just locked up Wetherholt long term. What if he fails? No one
knows for sure. His career could end tomorrow.
4.This team should be spending double what they're spending on talent. It would look
like a different team if that was true. You know it, I know it and any sane person
knows it.
5.The goal should be to compete every year. Not tank to gather breadcrumbs for your
mythical pie. It's a slap in the face to fans, a travesty to the game and a flawed
philosophy that some like you seem to have some kind of fetish for.

If you don't want to win every year then why field a team every year. Just forfeit all the games until you can build up your crumbs. It's asinine. Reality? I would argue that my point of view is reality and yours is a fantasy. Even after years of suffering you can offer no guarantee of winning anything. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it.

What you should know is that when you sign a player like Bregman in his 30s to a five year contract, you are hoping he goes:

Year 1 - good
Year 2 - good
Year 3 - average
Year 4 - bad
Year 5 - bad

so that the contract you signed him to doesn't look terrible in total. But you need to be ready to "win now" in Year 1-3 of that contract, not Year 4-5.

That's why is makes no sense for the Cardinals - who clearly aren't ready to "win now" - to invest in players like Bregman, even if they are good for a year or two. Because by the time the young core of players IS ready to compete, the Bregmans you signed three year ago will probably be in their "bad" years at the end of those contracts - and then you won't be able to really compete then either.

You sign your Bregmans AFTER you have rebuilt your young core players so you combine that young core which is ready to "win now" with likely the best years of your big FA signings. That is how you actually compete.

Mitch...."Let's lose now! Let's lose a lot for years! Then one day our cheap as dirt owners can spend very little on a mythical juggernaut! Then when it doesn't happen, we can do the process all over again! Isn't this fun!"

No, it's not fun. It's stupid and a slap in the face to fans that work hard for their money and are expected to support that tripe.

It's people like you obsessing over the owner and bringing it into every topic. You assume every pragmatic baseball discussion that doesn't involve incessant complaining must be just white-knighting for the owner.

You have to imagine that every front office in the game understands most of their fans think like you. Remember when the Cardinals didn't pull off the Evan Longoria trade (when SF got him). All the fans like you complained like that was the last straw and spoke with this tunnel vision about how that move and that move alone proved that the organization "didn't care about the fans." I remember the outcry. Think about how laughable that idea sounded after Longoria went on to age poorly in SF, as many of us expected who weren't just clamoring for the name on the back like a kid sitting in the shopping cart pointing at everything they see on the shelf.

So a front office knows that the majority of the fans are irrational and impulsive, like most Americans. If you are going to run for president in this country and win, you aren't going to be able to win the majority of the vote unless you can manage to have a portion of loudmouth, irrational, impulsive idiots as part of your constituency. Because it's the largest group. Front office people, politicians, business people all have to know that. They know that there will always be arm chair fans as they operate the team. And they know you'll be right there when they win, as the fans come out every time there is a winning stretch of baseball.

Bregman in no way was a fit in St Louis. Nobody even knew Walker was going to be an all-star. So the team was not expected to be very good. Bregman and who else? (and I'm sure you would love to tell us who else was on your Christmas list).

You want to develop these young players, watch them become all-stars, and then you can't afford to pay them as arbitration goes up because you have Bregman and every other 35+ year old you clamor for taking up the payroll?

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

[mattmitchl44]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

The guy making $35 mil a year with an OPS+ of 100?

Look at his career stats and sneer. Where would he be on the depth chart for the Cards?

You're right. Pay no attention to the stats in front of you. Instead justify your answer by looking at past performance.

Short sample size bias. You have no idea how his entire season will go. I have no real axe to grind here. I'm no huge fan of Bregman. Did the Cubs overpay? Maybe. Probably. But they have a legitimate bat at third base and he just beat the Cards today. At least they're trying to win. The Cards ownership made it clear from the get go that they want to lose. I can't support that bull.

And that is exactly what you DON'T do when you don't have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players ready to "win now."

AFTER the Cardinals have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players in place, maybe then you can think about paying/overpaying for that last piece or two that you need to "win now."

But it would just be foolish to for them to lock themselves into a deal like Bregman's (who is likely to continue declining in the mid-to-late 30s) now when they aren't ready to compete.

Spending has to be smart and timely if a team like the Cardinals is going to win another WS anytime soon.

Saving BILLIONAIRE owners money is the primary concern. Because competing yearly is too much effort. Meanwhile, teams like the Cubs will probably get their tickets punched and have a chance to win the whole thing. You must be so happy.

It's not about "saving billionaire owners money." It's about acknowledging that this team is going to have a BUDGET - every single team, business, government, etc. has a BUDGET - whether you think they should have a budget or not. And even if/when that budget goes back up to $170, $180, etc. million, you don't want them to be holding bad contracts that they signed one, two, three years prior just to "do something!" to act like they were "competing."

You don't deal in reality.

1. Who benefits from cutting payroll? Ownership.
2. The budget shouldn't be $98 million dollars....ever. The only purpose is losing.
3. You, I or ownership can never know whether a contract will be bad. It's a
(bleep) shoot. Nobody could have expected the cliff that the co mvp's would have
fallen off of. They just locked up Wetherholt long term. What if he fails? No one
knows for sure. His career could end tomorrow.
4.This team should be spending double what they're spending on talent. It would look
like a different team if that was true. You know it, I know it and any sane person
knows it.
5.The goal should be to compete every year. Not tank to gather breadcrumbs for your
mythical pie. It's a slap in the face to fans, a travesty to the game and a flawed
philosophy that some like you seem to have some kind of fetish for.

If you don't want to win every year then why field a team every year. Just forfeit all the games until you can build up your crumbs. It's asinine. Reality? I would argue that my point of view is reality and yours is a fantasy. Even after years of suffering you can offer no guarantee of winning anything. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it.

What you should know is that when you sign a player like Bregman in his 30s to a five year contract, you are hoping he goes:

Year 1 - good
Year 2 - good
Year 3 - average
Year 4 - bad
Year 5 - bad

so that the contract you signed him to doesn't look terrible in total. But you need to be ready to "win now" in Year 1-3 of that contract, not Year 4-5.

That's why is makes no sense for the Cardinals - who clearly aren't ready to "win now" - to invest in players like Bregman, even if they are good for a year or two. Because by the time the young core of players IS ready to compete, the Bregmans you signed three year ago will probably be in their "bad" years at the end of those contracts - and then you won't be able to really compete then either.

You sign your Bregmans AFTER you have rebuilt your young core players so you combine that young core which is ready to "win now" with likely the best years of your big FA signings. That is how you actually compete.

Mitch...."Let's lose now! Let's lose a lot for years! Then one day our cheap as dirt owners can spend very little on a mythical juggernaut! Then when it doesn't happen, we can do the process all over again! Isn't this fun!"

No, it's not fun. It's stupid and a slap in the face to fans that work hard for their money and are expected to support that tripe.

Your "feels" doesn't change what the strategy needs to be to give themselves the best chance of winning another WS.

[mattmitchl44]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

[CCard]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

[CCard]

But that's all right because Bloom and DeWitt are getting that talent pipeline up to speed and int 2 or 10 years they'll be a juggernaut. The difference between spending to win or tanking. Oh excuse me, I meant "rebuilding".

The guy making $35 mil a year with an OPS+ of 100?

Look at his career stats and sneer. Where would he be on the depth chart for the Cards?

You're right. Pay no attention to the stats in front of you. Instead justify your answer by looking at past performance.

Short sample size bias. You have no idea how his entire season will go. I have no real axe to grind here. I'm no huge fan of Bregman. Did the Cubs overpay? Maybe. Probably. But they have a legitimate bat at third base and he just beat the Cards today. At least they're trying to win. The Cards ownership made it clear from the get go that they want to lose. I can't support that bull.

And that is exactly what you DON'T do when you don't have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players ready to "win now."

AFTER the Cardinals have a sufficient core of young, cost controlled players in place, maybe then you can think about paying/overpaying for that last piece or two that you need to "win now."

But it would just be foolish to for them to lock themselves into a deal like Bregman's (who is likely to continue declining in the mid-to-late 30s) now when they aren't ready to compete.

Spending has to be smart and timely if a team like the Cardinals is going to win another WS anytime soon.

Saving BILLIONAIRE owners money is the primary concern. Because competing yearly is too much effort. Meanwhile, teams like the Cubs will probably get their tickets punched and have a chance to win the whole thing. You must be so happy.

It's not about "saving billionaire owners money." It's about acknowledging that this team is going to have a BUDGET - every single team, business, government, etc. has a BUDGET - whether you think they should have a budget or not. And even if/when that budget goes back up to $170, $180, etc. million, you don't want them to be holding bad contracts that they signed one, two, three years prior just to "do something!" to act like they were "competing."

You don't deal in reality.

1. Who benefits from cutting payroll? Ownership.
2. The budget shouldn't be $98 million dollars....ever. The only purpose is losing.
3. You, I or ownership can never know whether a contract will be bad. It's a
(bleep) shoot. Nobody could have expected the cliff that the co mvp's would have
fallen off of. They just locked up Wetherholt long term. What if he fails? No one
knows for sure. His career could end tomorrow.
4.This team should be spending double what they're spending on talent. It would look
like a different team if that was true. You know it, I know it and any sane person
knows it.
5.The goal should be to compete every year. Not tank to gather breadcrumbs for your
mythical pie. It's a slap in the face to fans, a travesty to the game and a flawed
philosophy that some like you seem to have some kind of fetish for.

If you don't want to win every year then why field a team every year. Just forfeit all the games until you can build up your crumbs. It's asinine. Reality? I would argue that my point of view is reality and yours is a fantasy. Even after years of suffering you can offer no guarantee of winning anything. You know it and I know it and everyone knows it.

What you should know is that when you sign a player like Bregman in his 30s to a five year contract, you are hoping he goes:

Year 1 - good
Year 2 - good
Year 3 - average
Year 4 - bad
Year 5 - bad

so that the contract you signed him to doesn't look terrible in total. But you need to be ready to "win now" in Year 1-3 of that contract, not Year 4-5.

That's why is makes no sense for the Cardinals - who clearly aren't ready to "win now" - to invest in players like Bregman, even if they are good for a year or two. Because by the time the young core of players IS ready to compete, the Bregmans you signed three year ago will probably be in their "bad" years at the end of those contracts - and then you won't be able to really compete then either.

You sign your Bregmans AFTER you have rebuilt your young core players so you combine that young core which is ready to "win now" with likely the best years of your big FA signings. That is how you actually compete.

Mitch...."Let's lose now! Let's lose a lot for years! Then one day our cheap as dirt owners can spend very little on a mythical juggernaut! Then when it doesn't happen, we can do the process all over again! Isn't this fun!"

No, it's not fun. It's stupid and a slap in the face to fans that work hard for their money and are expected to support that tripe.

Your "feels" doesn't change what the strategy needs to be to give themselves the best chance of winning another WS.

You're no oracle. You don't know what will happen. You're guessing based on your feelings. You have no evidence. Everything you cite is tainted by your beliefs that have no basis in facts. We've done this dance to death, why not just go on and agree that we will never agree.

[Ozziesfan41]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

lol that’s how all successful rebuilds work they rebuild to form a young core then spend to bring in the pieces they’re missing so of course they spend before winning that’s how rebuilds work I’m surprised you didn’t know that. You want them to spend stupidly without a core and prolong years of mediocrity it’s a horrible strategy that has already been failing u want them to cling to

[mattmitchl44]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.

But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.

[CCard]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.

But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.

Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.

[CCard]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

lol that’s how all successful rebuilds work they rebuild to form a young core then spend to bring in the pieces they’re missing so of course they spend before winning that’s how rebuilds work I’m surprised you didn’t know that. You want them to spend stupidly without a core and prolong years of mediocrity it’s a horrible strategy that has already been failing u want them to cling to

Literally every team in baseball has young players they are training and trying to bring to the majors. All teams. The difference? Some try to win while doing it while others tank and don't care about winning.

[Ozziesfan41]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

lol that’s how all successful rebuilds work they rebuild to form a young core then spend to bring in the pieces they’re missing so of course they spend before winning that’s how rebuilds work I’m surprised you didn’t know that. You want them to spend stupidly without a core and prolong years of mediocrity it’s a horrible strategy that has already been failing u want them to cling to

Literally every team in baseball has young players they are training and trying to bring to the majors. All teams. The difference? Some try to win while doing it while others tank and don't care about winning.

I’m just glad you aren’t running the team the team would be perpetually doomed to mediocrity

[mattmitchl44]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.

But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.

Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.

Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.

But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.

[CCard]

To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.

Houston did it.

After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.

Atlanta did it.

After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.

Philadelphia did it.

After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.

If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.

That's reality.

Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.

Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.

But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.

Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.

Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.

But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.

3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.