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Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 19:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:50 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:28 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:18 pm

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:24 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:58 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:36 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:54 pm
The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about JJ playing SS in the minors. Just to clear a few things up.

First, every team challenges their prospects to play the hardest position they can in the minors to determine their limits even if they expect to move him to an easier slot by the times he reaches the majors. And any player capable of playing SS is able to play 2B.

And comparing JJ's defense this year against Winn defense is a bit unfair since Winn merits the gold glove this year IMO. He was elite on defense. To be fair look at Winn's defensive numbers in the minors with lesser 1Bs taking throws and rougher infields. They produced about the same defensive performance. I'm not saying JJ is Winn's equal on defense. Few are. Just saying his actual performance indicates he COULD play SS in the majors. Knowing this is valuable. It allows the team to not carry a backup able to play SS. JJ becomes the backup SS and the utility player a 2b/3b.

Unless something drastic happens to Winn he clearly owns SS for the foreseeable future. As such I expect spring to see JJ playing a lot of 2B with the big guys. Hopefully, since I view 2026 as another rebuild year, they send him down to AAA at season open. Only reason they shouldn't is if they invest heavily in an attempt to compete, or, JJ is so dominant in spring he might win ROY.

I was responding to someone asserting we trade Winn and give the job to Wetherholt. The 2025 Cardinals are a last place team without Winn and Donovan up the middle. McGreevy's H/9 was better in St Louis this season than his career milb H/9. Add to our strength. That's how we build a winner.

OK my bad. I can see trading Winn but it isn't what I would prefer. I would prefer Winn/JJ up the middle the next 5 years. If Scott improves OBP, and if one of Bernal/Rodriguez turns into the real deal the cCards would be set up the middle for a long time.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 19:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:50 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:28 pm

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑07 Oct 2025 22:31 pm It'll be strange if Bloom actually leaves his hotel suite and interacts with other POBOs/GMs. Johnny bow ties always hid in his with Girsch and Flores. Very awkward and strange.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 19:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 18:50 pm

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 19:02 pm

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:27 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

So they should trade Donovan then sign him back

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 19:02 pm

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:12 pm

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:32 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

Melville wrote: ↑11 Oct 2025 20:42 pm

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

Your point is what? Chapman was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old? Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million per year of what he signed for. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract?

I'm unclear as to what you are saying.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:38 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:32 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 06:25 am

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

Your point is what? Chapman was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old? Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million per year of what he signed for. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract?

I'm unclear as to what you are saying.

We are talking Hammel and Jeff S.

You realize the Cubs had a REALLY good starting staff in 2014 and were in year 3 of a crazy rebuild. Why would they trade Jeff S and Hammel? 40% OF THEIR STARTING STAFF???

You said Jeff S. rejected a deal. So? There's like nearly two years to offer another deal. YET, they traded him.

WHY?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:49 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:38 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:32 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

Melville wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 09:56 am

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

Your point is what? Chapman was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old? Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million per year of what he signed for. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract?

I'm unclear as to what you are saying.

We are talking Hammel and Jeff S.

You realize the Cubs had a REALLY good starting staff in 2014 and were in year 3 of a crazy rebuild. Why would they trade Jeff S and Hammel? 40% OF THEIR STARTING STAFF???

You said Jeff S. rejected a deal. So? There's like nearly two years to offer another deal. YET, they traded him.

WHY?

You asked about the Royals trading Chapman. He was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old. Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million a year of what he got from the Giants. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract? They traded Hammel because they planned to re-sign him and did.

What is your point as it relates to Bloom shopping Donovan?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:52 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:49 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:38 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:32 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑12 Oct 2025 18:45 pm

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

Your point is what? Chapman was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old? Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million per year of what he signed for. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract?

I'm unclear as to what you are saying.

We are talking Hammel and Jeff S.

You realize the Cubs had a REALLY good starting staff in 2014 and were in year 3 of a crazy rebuild. Why would they trade Jeff S and Hammel? 40% OF THEIR STARTING STAFF???

You said Jeff S. rejected a deal. So? There's like nearly two years to offer another deal. YET, they traded him.

WHY?

You asked about the Royals trading Chapman. He was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old. Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million a year of what he got from the Giants. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract? They traded Hammel because they planned to re-sign him and did.

What is your point as it relates to Bloom shopping Donovan?

Answer my question.

Why would the ascending 2014 cubs trade 40% of their really good pitching staff????

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:11 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:52 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:49 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:38 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:32 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 22:31 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 20:25 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 17:51 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:45 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 13:23 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 11:51 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 10:35 am

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

We have no Pujols. Donovan is top 5 at his position in MLB. Build from our strengths. Subtract one place to add another = more losing.

No offense, but I feel like I'm talking to someone who just started following baseball.

Why did the Royals trade Chapman in 2023?

Why did the 2014 Cubs trade Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel?

Royals were in last place and Chapman was 35 years old.

Cubs were in last place.

Samardzija had one year left Cubs offered 5 @ $85 and he turned it down so they traded him. Signed for the Giants for 5 @ $90.

Hammel was in his walk year. They traded him in late July and then signed him as a free agent. Shrewd move. They got 2 good years out of him @ $10 per year and he sports a world series ring.

You: “cubs and royals were in last place!”
Me: “cards were in 2nd to last place in 2025.”

You: “JS had 1 1/2 year left, hammel walk year.”
Me: Donovan has two years left. Why is that a huge difference?

Your point is what? Chapman was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old? Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million per year of what he signed for. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract?

I'm unclear as to what you are saying.

We are talking Hammel and Jeff S.

You realize the Cubs had a REALLY good starting staff in 2014 and were in year 3 of a crazy rebuild. Why would they trade Jeff S and Hammel? 40% OF THEIR STARTING STAFF???

You said Jeff S. rejected a deal. So? There's like nearly two years to offer another deal. YET, they traded him.

WHY?

You asked about the Royals trading Chapman. He was 35 years old. Is Donovan 35 years old. Cubs offered Samardzija within $1 million a year of what he got from the Giants. Have the Cardinals offered Donovan a market value contract? They traded Hammel because they planned to re-sign him and did.

What is your point as it relates to Bloom shopping Donovan?

Answer my question.

Why would the ascending 2014 cubs trade 40% of their really good pitching staff????

You asked why the Royals traded Chapman and why the Cubs traded Samardzija and Hammel. I researched and explained in great detail why they traded them. What part of my explanation do you fail to comprehend?

More detail. They were traded on July 4, 2014. The Cubs 38-46 and in last place. Are you saying the Cardinals who were 5 games over .500 at the all star break should have traded Donovan?

I'm confused.