Bloom will listen to interest for Donovan and Noot

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

I understand but Bloom apparently is shopping Donovan. If they trade Arenado who plays third base and given that Wetherholt played 100 games at SS and only 20 games at 2B. If the plan is to trade Donovan or move him to the outfield why did they having Wetherholt at SS when we already have Winn?

There are other 3bs in the world besides Arenado.

Right but why did Wetherholt play 100 games at shortstop? I don't understand the front office's plan.

Why didn’t Walker play some outfield in the minors before being thrust out there in his rookie season? Why was Gorman not given time at 2B in the minors? If Herrera is not very good at catching, why didn’t they find a better position for him?
Pretty much just how they do things in St Louis, hopefully that changes under Bloom.

Bloom was running the place in 2025. Mozeliak at the all star break said he wanted to add but instead the dumped. If there was such a thing as a reporter perhaps Bloom could be asked about that.

Good it would have been dumb to trade prospects for a Hail Mary attempt to try to squeak into the wildcard so they would be one and done then the free agents leave with getting nothing in return plus the prospects they traded would be gone also. Just would have been a typical dumb mo move. And if they kept helsley he wouldn’t have helped derail the Mets so the Mets most likely would have made the post season. If bloom called the sell at the deadline he’s smarter than mo

Why then was Bloom playing Wetherholt at SS in milb when we have Winn?

Because Winn swings a purse.

[ramfandan]

Sounds likely. Not sure how much we would get in return for Gorman. Maybe he stays as a backup to fill in for injuries? Probably best to see if Wetherholt can handle MLB pitching before we stipulate to him being the man.

Which is why I have correctly advised retaining Donovan until July.
Trade Nootbaar and Walker as part of the restart.
Move Donovan to LF.
Gorman at 3b and Wetherholt at 2b.
Donovan becomes insurance for both spots.
If all is going well by July, then trade Donovan.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Since Donovan is the better defensive second baseman wouldn't you move Wetherholt to OF? Defense up the middle is one part of winning.

A very fair question.
Here is the answer.
1. The outfield is a complete disaster and one obvious way to improve it both offensively and defensively is for Donovan to replace Mootbaar.
2. STL needs to determine if Wiin/Wetherholt can be the middle infield combo offensively and defensively for the next several years - which would give the roster a good foundation to build around.
3. A high quality 2B is far more valuable than a LF - if Wetherholt can do either, 2B is clearly the smarter deployment.

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

[renostl]

[quote=Ozziesfan41 post_id=13165140 time=1760306

Bloom was running the place in 2025. Mozeliak at the all star break said he wanted to add but instead the dumped. If there was such a thing as a reporter perhaps Bloom could be asked about that.

Good it would have been dumb to trade prospects for a Hail Mary attempt to try to squeak into the wildcard so they would be one and done then the free agents leave with getting nothing in return plus the prospects they traded would be gone also. Just would have been a typical dumb mo move. And if they kept helsley he wouldn’t have helped derail the Mets so the Mets most likely would have made the post season. If bloom called the sell at the deadline he’s smarter than mo
[/quote]

Why then was Bloom playing Wetherholt at SS in milb when we have Winn?
[/quote]

Wetherholt's most played position in college was 2B.
Then 3B followed by the SSS of 20 ish games at SS.

I would think that they have a decent idea of what JJ does at 2B since they gave him several million. When JJ was drafted he claimed himself having SS ability.

Short challenges JJ and will give you all the information needed regarding if his are handles both SS and 3B. If glove and range can handle SS or if he truly needs to stick at 2B/3B. A thorough evaluation of all 3 by putting him in his most challenging position.

He also played some outfield.
We assume Winn is the SS. It isn't known.

[ScotchMIrish]

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

I understand but Bloom apparently is shopping Donovan. If they trade Arenado who plays third base and given that Wetherholt played 100 games at SS and only 20 games at 2B. If the plan is to trade Donovan or move him to the outfield why did they having Wetherholt at SS when we already have Winn?

There are other 3bs in the world besides Arenado.

Right but why did Wetherholt play 100 games at shortstop? I don't understand the front office's plan.

Why didn’t Walker play some outfield in the minors before being thrust out there in his rookie season? Why was Gorman not given time at 2B in the minors? If Herrera is not very good at catching, why didn’t they find a better position for him?
Pretty much just how they do things in St Louis, hopefully that changes under Bloom.

Bloom was running the place in 2025. Mozeliak at the all star break said he wanted to add but instead the dumped. If there was such a thing as a reporter perhaps Bloom could be asked about that.

Good it would have been dumb to trade prospects for a Hail Mary attempt to try to squeak into the wildcard so they would be one and done then the free agents leave with getting nothing in return plus the prospects they traded would be gone also. Just would have been a typical dumb mo move. And if they kept helsley he wouldn’t have helped derail the Mets so the Mets most likely would have made the post season. If bloom called the sell at the deadline he’s smarter than mo

Why then was Bloom playing Wetherholt at SS in milb when we have Winn?

Because Winn swings a purse.

The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

[Melville]

Which is why I have correctly advised retaining Donovan until July.
Trade Nootbaar and Walker as part of the restart.
Move Donovan to LF.
Gorman at 3b and Wetherholt at 2b.
Donovan becomes insurance for both spots.
If all is going well by July, then trade Donovan.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Since Donovan is the better defensive second baseman wouldn't you move Wetherholt to OF? Defense up the middle is one part of winning.

A very fair question.
Here is the answer.
1. The outfield is a complete disaster and one obvious way to improve it both offensively and defensively is for Donovan to replace Mootbaar.
2. STL needs to determine if Wiin/Wetherholt can be the middle infield combo offensively and defensively for the next several years - which would give the roster a good foundation to build around.
3. A high quality 2B is far more valuable than a LF - if Wetherholt can do either, 2B is clearly the smarter deployment.

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Which is why I said now is not the right time to trade Donovan.
STL must first determine if there is interest in an extension and what Donovan would be seeking.
He will be 31 before he is able to suit up for another team on a FA deal, meaning it will be his one and only big payday possibility on the open market.
Very few players would pass that up.
I would not expect Donovan to be one of them.
If no extension is likely, he should be traded in July.
And no, it is not a foregone conclusion that his value would be less than now.
It could be less.
Orit could be more.
Or possibly unchanged.
All would depend on his 2026 performance, and how much competition the market would provide for his services.
In the meanwhile, moving him to LF would be a significant upgrade over Mootbaar, and would provide valuable insurance for both 2b and 3b.
No need to write off the 2026 season too early.
Keeping him - for now - is the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION.

[cardstatman]

As a player, I would be willing to sell one and only one year of control in exchange for getting a guaranteed contract for seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 rather than taking my chances year to year that I'm still healthy.

I can guarantee myself ~$40M of career earnings (rather than < $5M) just in case I have a career ending injury in Spring 2026 or my performance drops off dramatically for any reason. I delay my big free agency chance by only one year but I'm still only 31 when I become a free agent; but I gain lifetime income security several years sooner.

As a team, I would be willing to unnecessarily agree to guarantee a player's contract in exchange for that extra year of control. If the player sours for any reason, the team is going to lose some money but they should take that risk.

IMHO, that's the sweet spot the Cardinals should be playing. After the extension, the Cardinals can choose to keep the player for the full 7 years or trade them away a year or two early and get back some prospects. Just stop with the no trade clauses unless the player concedes some significant salary to get one.

If the player wants to risk everything year to year for fear of giving the team any type of discount, then that's the players choice. The team will just have 6 years of control instead of 7 and will play for a series of one year deals and hope they have a good year in year 6.

[renostl]

As a player, I would be willing to sell one and only one year of control in exchange for getting a guaranteed contract for seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 rather than taking my chances year to year that I'm still healthy.

I can guarantee myself ~$40M of career earnings (rather than < $5M) just in case I have a career ending injury in Spring 2026 or my performance drops off dramatically for any reason. I delay my big free agency chance by only one year but I'm still only 31 when I become a free agent; but I gain lifetime income security several years sooner.

As a team, I would be willing to unnecessarily agree to guarantee a player's contract in exchange for that extra year of control. If the player sours for any reason, the team is going to lose some money but they should take that risk.

IMHO, that's the sweet spot the Cardinals should be playing. After the extension, the Cardinals can choose to keep the player for the full 7 years or trade them away a year or two early and get back some prospects. Just stop with the no trade clauses unless the player concedes some significant salary to get one.

If the player wants to risk everything year to year for fear of giving the team any type of discount, then that's the players choice. The team will just have 6 years of control instead of 7 and will play for a series of one year deals and hope they have a good year in year 6.

Agree
Especially with a player that doesn't bring the high
dollar SLG tool. Their big contract is still life changing.
Yet in the final 8 teams this season BD could have improved most of them.

[ecleme22]

As a player, I would be willing to sell one and only one year of control in exchange for getting a guaranteed contract for seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 rather than taking my chances year to year that I'm still healthy.

I can guarantee myself ~$40M of career earnings (rather than < $5M) just in case I have a career ending injury in Spring 2026 or my performance drops off dramatically for any reason. I delay my big free agency chance by only one year but I'm still only 31 when I become a free agent; but I gain lifetime income security several years sooner.

As a team, I would be willing to unnecessarily agree to guarantee a player's contract in exchange for that extra year of control. If the player sours for any reason, the team is going to lose some money but they should take that risk.

IMHO, that's the sweet spot the Cardinals should be playing. After the extension, the Cardinals can choose to keep the player for the full 7 years or trade them away a year or two early and get back some prospects. Just stop with the no trade clauses unless the player concedes some significant salary to get one.

If the player wants to risk everything year to year for fear of giving the team any type of discount, then that's the players choice. The team will just have 6 years of control instead of 7 and will play for a series of one year deals and hope they have a good year in year 6.

As an org, I would rather go year to year.

BD's current contract status makes him easier to trade.

[VegasVinny]

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

I understand but Bloom apparently is shopping Donovan. If they trade Arenado who plays third base and given that Wetherholt played 100 games at SS and only 20 games at 2B. If the plan is to trade Donovan or move him to the outfield why did they having Wetherholt at SS when we already have Winn?

There are other 3bs in the world besides Arenado.

Right but why did Wetherholt play 100 games at shortstop? I don't understand the front office's plan.

Why didn’t Walker play some outfield in the minors before being thrust out there in his rookie season? Why was Gorman not given time at 2B in the minors? If Herrera is not very good at catching, why didn’t they find a better position for him?
Pretty much just how they do things in St Louis, hopefully that changes under Bloom.

Bloom was running the place in 2025. Mozeliak at the all star break said he wanted to add but instead the dumped. If there was such a thing as a reporter perhaps Bloom could be asked about that.

Good it would have been dumb to trade prospects for a Hail Mary attempt to try to squeak into the wildcard so they would be one and done then the free agents leave with getting nothing in return plus the prospects they traded would be gone also. Just would have been a typical dumb mo move. And if they kept helsley he wouldn’t have helped derail the Mets so the Mets most likely would have made the post season. If bloom called the sell at the deadline he’s smarter than mo

Why then was Bloom playing Wetherholt at SS in milb when we have Winn?

It's the same question that was posed to the front office when Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman were making their way through the minors. It was clear Arenado was going to be the third baseman for the foreseeable future, but the team's thinking is that you put a player at the most challenging defensive position because it's easier to go from left to right across the defensive spectrum than vice versa (i.e. if JJ can develop into a major-league caliber shortstop, then he'll have no issue manning 2B).

We don't have to completely agree with the team's reasoning, but their thinking has been relayed through at least a few chats that Goold has hosted here.

[Bomber1]

Which is why I have correctly advised retaining Donovan until July.
Trade Nootbaar and Walker as part of the restart.
Move Donovan to LF.
Gorman at 3b and Wetherholt at 2b.
Donovan becomes insurance for both spots.
If all is going well by July, then trade Donovan.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Since Donovan is the better defensive second baseman wouldn't you move Wetherholt to OF? Defense up the middle is one part of winning.

A very fair question.
Here is the answer.
1. The outfield is a complete disaster and one obvious way to improve it both offensively and defensively is for Donovan to replace Mootbaar.
2. STL needs to determine if Wiin/Wetherholt can be the middle infield combo offensively and defensively for the next several years - which would give the roster a good foundation to build around.
3. A high quality 2B is far more valuable than a LF - if Wetherholt can do either, 2B is clearly the smarter deployment.

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:

Trade Donovan now.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about JJ playing SS in the minors. Just to clear a few things up.

First, every team challenges their prospects to play the hardest position they can in the minors to determine their limits even if they expect to move him to an easier slot by the times he reaches the majors. And any player capable of playing SS is able to play 2B.

And comparing JJ's defense this year against Winn defense is a bit unfair since Winn merits the gold glove this year IMO. He was elite on defense. To be fair look at Winn's defensive numbers in the minors with lesser 1Bs taking throws and rougher infields. They produced about the same defensive performance. I'm not saying JJ is Winn's equal on defense. Few are. Just saying his actual performance indicates he COULD play SS in the majors. Knowing this is valuable. It allows the team to not carry a backup able to play SS. JJ becomes the backup SS and the utility player a 2b/3b.

Unless something drastic happens to Winn he clearly owns SS for the foreseeable future. As such I expect spring to see JJ playing a lot of 2B with the big guys. Hopefully, since I view 2026 as another rebuild year, they send him down to AAA at season open. Only reason they shouldn't is if they invest heavily in an attempt to compete, or, JJ is so dominant in spring he might win ROY.

[ScotchMIrish]

Since Donovan is the better defensive second baseman wouldn't you move Wetherholt to OF? Defense up the middle is one part of winning.

A very fair question.
Here is the answer.
1. The outfield is a complete disaster and one obvious way to improve it both offensively and defensively is for Donovan to replace Mootbaar.
2. STL needs to determine if Wiin/Wetherholt can be the middle infield combo offensively and defensively for the next several years - which would give the roster a good foundation to build around.
3. A high quality 2B is far more valuable than a LF - if Wetherholt can do either, 2B is clearly the smarter deployment.

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:

Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

[ScotchMIrish]

The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about JJ playing SS in the minors. Just to clear a few things up.

First, every team challenges their prospects to play the hardest position they can in the minors to determine their limits even if they expect to move him to an easier slot by the times he reaches the majors. And any player capable of playing SS is able to play 2B.

And comparing JJ's defense this year against Winn defense is a bit unfair since Winn merits the gold glove this year IMO. He was elite on defense. To be fair look at Winn's defensive numbers in the minors with lesser 1Bs taking throws and rougher infields. They produced about the same defensive performance. I'm not saying JJ is Winn's equal on defense. Few are. Just saying his actual performance indicates he COULD play SS in the majors. Knowing this is valuable. It allows the team to not carry a backup able to play SS. JJ becomes the backup SS and the utility player a 2b/3b.

Unless something drastic happens to Winn he clearly owns SS for the foreseeable future. As such I expect spring to see JJ playing a lot of 2B with the big guys. Hopefully, since I view 2026 as another rebuild year, they send him down to AAA at season open. Only reason they shouldn't is if they invest heavily in an attempt to compete, or, JJ is so dominant in spring he might win ROY.

I was responding to someone asserting we trade Winn and give the job to Wetherholt. The 2025 Cardinals are a last place team without Winn and Donovan up the middle. McGreevy's H/9 was better in St Louis this season than his career milb H/9. Add to our strength. That's how we build a winner.

[Talkin' Baseball]

The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about JJ playing SS in the minors. Just to clear a few things up.

First, every team challenges their prospects to play the hardest position they can in the minors to determine their limits even if they expect to move him to an easier slot by the times he reaches the majors. And any player capable of playing SS is able to play 2B.

And comparing JJ's defense this year against Winn defense is a bit unfair since Winn merits the gold glove this year IMO. He was elite on defense. To be fair look at Winn's defensive numbers in the minors with lesser 1Bs taking throws and rougher infields. They produced about the same defensive performance. I'm not saying JJ is Winn's equal on defense. Few are. Just saying his actual performance indicates he COULD play SS in the majors. Knowing this is valuable. It allows the team to not carry a backup able to play SS. JJ becomes the backup SS and the utility player a 2b/3b.

Unless something drastic happens to Winn he clearly owns SS for the foreseeable future. As such I expect spring to see JJ playing a lot of 2B with the big guys. Hopefully, since I view 2026 as another rebuild year, they send him down to AAA at season open. Only reason they shouldn't is if they invest heavily in an attempt to compete, or, JJ is so dominant in spring he might win ROY.

I was responding to someone asserting we trade Winn and give the job to Wetherholt. The 2025 Cardinals are a last place team without Winn and Donovan up the middle. McGreevy's H/9 was better in St Louis this season than his career milb H/9. Add to our strength. That's how we build a winner.

We're gonna find out.

[Bomber1]

A very fair question.
Here is the answer.
1. The outfield is a complete disaster and one obvious way to improve it both offensively and defensively is for Donovan to replace Mootbaar.
2. STL needs to determine if Wiin/Wetherholt can be the middle infield combo offensively and defensively for the next several years - which would give the roster a good foundation to build around.
3. A high quality 2B is far more valuable than a LF - if Wetherholt can do either, 2B is clearly the smarter deployment.

Wetherholt made 12 errors at SS and 2B in 100 games. Donovan made 4 and is a Gold glove second baseman.

I'd build around one of the few strengths on the team but it wouldn't surprise me if the Cardinals do something different given the recent trajectory.

Winn made 24 errors in his first minor league season (2021).
14 the next.
Then 11 in 2023.
Then jumped up to 18 in his first full year in STL.
But only 3 this past season.
Good reminder that it may not be wise to make any conclusions concerning the 10 errors Wetherholt made in 2025, his first full pro season, while playing 3 different positions across 2 minor league levels.

I see. Donovan is a gold glove second baseman. We don't have to speculate about that. We have differing ideas of how to build a championship team.

Donovan won a gold glove as a utility player, not as a 2B. He was the most serviceable defensively at multiple positions, not the best defensive second baseman. This is not to say he isn't a good defensive second baseman.

True but the debate is Wetherholt vs Donovan at second base. Wetherholt made 12 errors in 2025 mostly at shortstop. If he had made 12 errors at second base in MLB he would be tied for worst in MLB. If we do a complete dump and rebuild trying prospects to see how they do that's a repeat of last place from 3 years ago.

Actually, the debate is not about Donovan vs. Wetherholt at second base.
Rather, it is a matter of strategic priorities as Bloom begins to put his vision of the future in place.
Who will be the better bat or better glove in 2026 is not all that relevant.
Can Wetherholt and Winn be the middle infield for the next several years?
That is one of the questions Bloom will seek an answer to.
And Donovan simply is not part of that specific question.

How has that formula worked for the Pirates? Get rid of the all star and try a prospect.

But then, that is not what I am advocating at all.
In fact, I have very specifically said that Mootbaar and Walker should be traded this off-season.
Not Donovan.
Instead, I have said Donovan should move to LF, serving as insurance at both 2b and 3b through July.
Then, evaluate.
In the meanwhile, determine Donovan's interest in an extension.
Ultimately, perhaps Donovan stays long term, or perhaps he does not.
But that should be decided in July.
Strategically, that is the right decision.

A factor not being addressed currently is how Donovan's camp plays this scenario . It's mentioned that the Cardinals should decide in July . While that may be a great time for the team to decide , Donovan's agent could press for an extention this offseason and if Cardinals do not do one, they may say OK , but Donovan will play out this year and next on the final two arb years.
The Cardinals would risk the chance of signing him long term and if he plays lights out from March til July , Donovan's side could say Well you had your shot at signing him long term this past winter and you passed on it , so he played for less again this year than what the first year of the long term deal would have been. so too bad.
Then sure Bloom could trade him in July (and a big 2026 may help recoup something good ) but also the trading team will be stingy on the return offer since they have him for 1 yr & 2 months instead of 2 full years .
Donovan is in a pretty good position too on this situation and we can't assume that come next July if Cardinals want to keep him long term that he will necessarily do that . He may elect to go to free agency after the Cardinals passed both last year and then this offseason to sign him long term. Nobody would blame Donovan for going that route. Other players who wanted extensions with the Cardinals and did not get them have gone the free agent route ie Jack Flaherty

Sometimes fans will only consider what's in the best interest of the team in these timetables. The player also can play the game too . They are looking out for No. 1 . Of course Bloom has been around the block a few times and he certainly knows that Donovan has some leverage in this situation too IF Cardinals want him long term.

Here is the solution to the quandary posed in your post:
Trade Donovan now.

That's what the Pirates would do.

Brendan Donovan is not the key to the Cardinals’ future success despite your infatuation with him.

He is a solid player but not some cornerstone player.

The Cardinals will not be contending for anything meaningful during the next couple years.

Trade Donovan now while his value is high.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

The most important thing at SS is defense. Wetherholt 12 errors in 100 games. Winn 3 errors in 129 games. Led MLB in fielding percentage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about JJ playing SS in the minors. Just to clear a few things up.

First, every team challenges their prospects to play the hardest position they can in the minors to determine their limits even if they expect to move him to an easier slot by the times he reaches the majors. And any player capable of playing SS is able to play 2B.

And comparing JJ's defense this year against Winn defense is a bit unfair since Winn merits the gold glove this year IMO. He was elite on defense. To be fair look at Winn's defensive numbers in the minors with lesser 1Bs taking throws and rougher infields. They produced about the same defensive performance. I'm not saying JJ is Winn's equal on defense. Few are. Just saying his actual performance indicates he COULD play SS in the majors. Knowing this is valuable. It allows the team to not carry a backup able to play SS. JJ becomes the backup SS and the utility player a 2b/3b.

Unless something drastic happens to Winn he clearly owns SS for the foreseeable future. As such I expect spring to see JJ playing a lot of 2B with the big guys. Hopefully, since I view 2026 as another rebuild year, they send him down to AAA at season open. Only reason they shouldn't is if they invest heavily in an attempt to compete, or, JJ is so dominant in spring he might win ROY.

I was responding to someone asserting we trade Winn and give the job to Wetherholt. The 2025 Cardinals are a last place team without Winn and Donovan up the middle. McGreevy's H/9 was better in St Louis this season than his career milb H/9. Add to our strength. That's how we build a winner.

OK my bad. I can see trading Winn but it isn't what I would prefer. I would prefer Winn/JJ up the middle the next 5 years. If Scott improves OBP, and if one of Bernal/Rodriguez turns into the real deal the cCards would be set up the middle for a long time.