CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.
But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.
Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.
Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.
But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.
3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.
Your "possible chances" are nowhere near equivalent, however.
In a modern MLB populated by the Dodgers, Braves, Phillies, Yankees (not to mention Brewers), etc., and the growing advantages they have, the Cardinals aren't actually competing every year for a chance to win a World Series - until they have a stronger core of young, cost controlled players and a Top 5 farm system to bring more to the majors.
CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
lol that’s how all successful rebuilds work they rebuild to form a young core then spend to bring in the pieces they’re missing so of course they spend before winning that’s how rebuilds work I’m surprised you didn’t know that. You want them to spend stupidly without a core and prolong years of mediocrity it’s a horrible strategy that has already been failing u want them to cling to
Literally every team in baseball has young players they are training and trying to bring to the majors. All teams. The difference? Some try to win while doing it while others tank and don't care about winning.
I’m just glad you aren’t running the team the team would be perpetually doomed to mediocrity
You live in fantasy land. Go lick the owners boots some more.
CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.
But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.
Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.
Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.
But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.
3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.
Your "possible chances" are nowhere near equivalent, however.
In a modern MLB populated by the Dodgers, Braves, Phillies, Yankees (not to mention Brewers), etc., and the growing advantages they have, the Cardinals aren't actually competing every year for a chance to win a World Series - until they have a stronger core of young, cost controlled players and a Top 5 farm system to bring more to the majors.
Again, and hopefully for the last time, How do you hope to get all these young cost controlled studs? Do you plan on more tanking? For how many years? You know it usually takes at least 2 to 3 years for a draft pick to rise to the MLB level. Some take 4 or 5 years. So in your fantasy land scenario, just how many years do you want the team to wallow at the bottom of the division? Five? Cause that's probably the bare minimum if everything pans out, which it never does. Or are we talking six, seven, eight years? Just how much pain and suffering do you want to foist onto the Cardinal fan base? You you not see the fallacy of your philosophy? Are the Cards undermanned against the Dodgers and Yankees? Of course and that's never going to change. They have a larger fan base and payroll, but that doesn't mean the Cards can't sign the slightly less premium players that could elevate in the moment. America has loved the underdog and I would love for the Cards to just make the playoffs and give them a chance. Your way completely destroys the team and fan base. Will the fans come back? Probably, maybe, I don't know. One thing is for certain, constant years of losing will have an affect on the base and the culture. Count me out on that.
CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.
But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.
Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.
Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.
But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.
3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.
Your "possible chances" are nowhere near equivalent, however.
In a modern MLB populated by the Dodgers, Braves, Phillies, Yankees (not to mention Brewers), etc., and the growing advantages they have, the Cardinals aren't actually competing every year for a chance to win a World Series - until they have a stronger core of young, cost controlled players and a Top 5 farm system to bring more to the majors.
Again, and hopefully for the last time, How do you hope to get all these young cost controlled studs? Do you plan on more tanking? For how many years? You know it usually takes at least 2 to 3 years for a draft pick to rise to the MLB level. Some take 4 or 5 years. So in your fantasy land scenario, just how many years do you want the team to wallow at the bottom of the division? Five? Cause that's probably the bare minimum if everything pans out, which it never does. Or are we talking six, seven, eight years? Just how much pain and suffering do you want to foist onto the Cardinal fan base? You you not see the fallacy of your philosophy? Are the Cards undermanned against the Dodgers and Yankees? Of course and that's never going to change. They have a larger fan base and payroll, but that doesn't mean the Cards can't sign the slightly less premium players that could elevate in the moment. America has loved the underdog and I would love for the Cards to just make the playoffs and give them a chance. Your way completely destroys the team and fan base. Will the fans come back? Probably, maybe, I don't know. One thing is for certain, constant years of losing will have an affect on the base and the culture. Count me out on that.
CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.
But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.
Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.
Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.
But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.
3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.
Your "possible chances" are nowhere near equivalent, however.
In a modern MLB populated by the Dodgers, Braves, Phillies, Yankees (not to mention Brewers), etc., and the growing advantages they have, the Cardinals aren't actually competing every year for a chance to win a World Series - until they have a stronger core of young, cost controlled players and a Top 5 farm system to bring more to the majors.
Again, and hopefully for the last time, How do you hope to get all these young cost controlled studs? Do you plan on more tanking? For how many years? You know it usually takes at least 2 to 3 years for a draft pick to rise to the MLB level. Some take 4 or 5 years. So in your fantasy land scenario, just how many years do you want the team to wallow at the bottom of the division? Five? Cause that's probably the bare minimum if everything pans out, which it never does. Or are we talking six, seven, eight years? Just how much pain and suffering do you want to foist onto the Cardinal fan base? You you not see the fallacy of your philosophy? Are the Cards undermanned against the Dodgers and Yankees? Of course and that's never going to change. They have a larger fan base and payroll, but that doesn't mean the Cards can't sign the slightly less premium players that could elevate in the moment. America has loved the underdog and I would love for the Cards to just make the playoffs and give them a chance. Your way completely destroys the team and fan base. Will the fans come back? Probably, maybe, I don't know. One thing is for certain, constant years of losing will have an affect on the base and the culture. Count me out on that.
You get them a multitude of ways:
1) you draft them
2) you sign them (internationally)
3) you trade for them
and then you develop all of them.
You acquire prospects who maybe on you ML roster in 2027 or 2028 by what should be doing right now - trading veterans to teams looking to "win now" this year for their prospects.
And, hopefully for the last time, the Cardinals WILL, eventually, have of add to their roster by obtaining experienced veteran players to fill holes. But the time for that it not NOW. The time for that will be, probably, 2028 after they have hopefully developed at least one, or better, two young front of rotation SPs.
CCard wrote: ↑01 Aug 2026 11:46 am
To begin with...Bregman is 32. Nobody said to go sign 35 year olds, you just made it up.
Now, teams that have holes need to fill them with the best talent they can afford. If you don't agree then we're done.
These mythical young players you talk of, when are they arriving? Will they all just pop out of a box at once? How many will get to the big leagues and fail consistently? How are we to build this juggernaut without losing consistently for years? All these questions should show you the error of your logic. Of course they won't because you and mitch and some of the others won't be deterred. You think you have the plans to make a juggernaut and reality doesn't support it. The goal, in my opinion, should be to compete every year and try to win the division and/or make the playoffs. Not tanking and losing for years in hopes of building a mythical beast. Again, reality. The owners thank you for their pocket cash while they cry about the Dodgers.
Houston did it.
After being 9th in payroll in 2009, they dropped off to 20th in 2011 (55-107), 27th in 2012 (55-107), 30th in 2013 (51-111), 29th in 2014 (70-92), and 27th in 2015 (86-76), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2017 on.
Atlanta did it.
After being 13th in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 22nd in 2015 (67-95), 19th in 2016 (68-93), 19th in 2017 (72-90), and 20th in 2018 (90-72), before raising spending again and going on a run of success from 2018 on.
Philadelphia did it.
After being 3rd in payroll in 2014, they dropped off to 18th in 2016 (71-91), 21st in 2017 (66-96), and 23rd in 2018 (80-82), before raising spending again and making the playoffs from 2022-2025.
If teams with typically more resources than the Cardinals see the advantage of dialing back MLB payroll spending while rebuilding the organization, the Cardinals should too.
That's reality.
Houston was well known for their cheating so that can be discounted. Where is there thunder now?
Funny how you make my point without realizing it. The common denominator? They raised their spending before winning. Hmmmm....which by the way was after prolonged losing.
Actually, all three teams had bounced back in W-L (Houston, 2015; Atlanta, 2018; Philadelphia, 2018) before increasing spending again.
But, yes, no one has argued that the Cardinals won't need to increase payroll back up to their traditional 10th, 11th, 12th in MLB level AFTER they have finished rebuilding - just like Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia did. But that isn't now.
Dream on. Houston, Atlanta and Philly didn't win until they increased payroll.
Again, no one is arguing that they didn't if by "win" we mean made deep postseason runs.
But they only increased payroll and won AFTER going through 2, 3, or more seasons of reduced payrolls and losing records.
3 years of being one of the worst teams in baseball for a possible chance at winning the World Series or competing every year for a possible chance at a World series title. It's an easy choice for me.
Your "possible chances" are nowhere near equivalent, however.
In a modern MLB populated by the Dodgers, Braves, Phillies, Yankees (not to mention Brewers), etc., and the growing advantages they have, the Cardinals aren't actually competing every year for a chance to win a World Series - until they have a stronger core of young, cost controlled players and a Top 5 farm system to bring more to the majors.
Again, and hopefully for the last time, How do you hope to get all these young cost controlled studs? Do you plan on more tanking? For how many years? You know it usually takes at least 2 to 3 years for a draft pick to rise to the MLB level. Some take 4 or 5 years. So in your fantasy land scenario, just how many years do you want the team to wallow at the bottom of the division? Five? Cause that's probably the bare minimum if everything pans out, which it never does. Or are we talking six, seven, eight years? Just how much pain and suffering do you want to foist onto the Cardinal fan base? You you not see the fallacy of your philosophy? Are the Cards undermanned against the Dodgers and Yankees? Of course and that's never going to change. They have a larger fan base and payroll, but that doesn't mean the Cards can't sign the slightly less premium players that could elevate in the moment. America has loved the underdog and I would love for the Cards to just make the playoffs and give them a chance. Your way completely destroys the team and fan base. Will the fans come back? Probably, maybe, I don't know. One thing is for certain, constant years of losing will have an affect on the base and the culture. Count me out on that.
You get them a multitude of ways:
1) you draft them
2) you sign them (internationally)
3) you trade for them
and then you develop all of them.
You acquire prospects who maybe on you ML roster in 2027 or 2028 by what should be doing right now - trading veterans to teams looking to "win now" this year for their prospects.
And, hopefully for the last time, the Cardinals WILL, eventually, have of add to their roster by obtaining experienced veteran players to fill holes. But the time for that it not NOW. The time for that will be, probably, 2028 after they have hopefully developed at least one, or better, two young front of rotation SPs.
Too right for the last time. Nothing you said precludes the Cards from getting a few premium pieces and plugging them into the line "Right Now". In a few years they'll probably be gone anyway. The difference is they would put a better more entertaining product on the field and who knows, maybe get lucky if they made the playoffs. You want to draft and develop? So does every other team in baseball. You want to sign international talent? Great, I'm there with you. Open up the frigging wallet and get them signed. Trade for them? With what? What do you see in this roster that another team would give a premium prospect for? Noot? Get real. Stanek? Please. O'brien or Jojo? You won't get a premium prospect for either of them. You'll get a lottery ticket that most likely you'll have to DFA later on. Reality sucks don't it.
