Question for those not wanting to Rebuild

[mattmitchl44]

It's so funny that for years people complained about the Cardinals business model and how our teams were always built to hopefully sneak in the playoffs and pray for a miracle. Now all of a sudden we are like 2 players from being real contenders? Okay.

Ohtani and Judge???

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Well not everyone gets the rebuild concept. I'm in favor so long as it is no longer than 2 years and then they go back to a higher level of salary and try to add premium type free agents. This means I give them slack 2026, and 2027 (if we even have a season) and by 2028 there better be results or I will be disappointed in this strategy.

It does get tiresome how some seem to feel entitled to ownership spending lots of it's own money for some reason.

I get what you're saying, but I don't see it as a matter of getting or not getting the concept of a rebuild. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people who don't.To me it's more of a question of if you think we really haven't been competitive the last few years, then why would you be against trading expensive, or soon to be expensive, veteran players?

All I heard for years from some of these same people complaining about trading these players is that the Central is terrible, so who cares if we win 87 games, we'll just get bounced from the playoffs immediately. If that's the case, what would make someone think signing Eugenio Suarez and Framber Valdez are all of a sudden going to make the team real contenders? Honestly, I think that their real gripe is that they think that this team should spend like a big market team and be able to throw money at whatever problem you have and continue just to sign free agents, but that's another story.

I do agree with your timeline, though. People are starting to say that this is a top five farm system right now. It's only going to get better once we trade Donovan and (if we can trade him) Contreras. I think it's possible that we're pretty decent in 2027 and there's no reason to think that 2028 you really start to see the results. And even next offseason, if there's a pitcher or position player out there as a free agent that they really like, I think they should sign him, even if they still aren't very confident they'll be that great in 2027. If Walker or Gorman or both break out this year, then I'm definitely moving up my timeline to 2027. And I expect the Cardinals to spend accordingly whenever that time comes. We need to be back at a top ten to top third payroll team.

[CCard]

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

Surely you can see the difference between the 2006 Cardinals and the 2026 Cardinals, right? We were coming off 5 incredibly successful seasons, the last two seasons were 100 win team. We had the greatest player on earth at the time in his prime. The MV3 of Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen was still together. We had Chris Carpenter at the top of the rotation.

You can't look at anyone with a straight face and tell me that the two teams are similar at all.

EDIT: I should add to this that part of Walt Jocketty's downfall was not being able to see after 2007 that a change was needed and players like Jim Edmonds needed to be replaced. We ended up having a bad year in 2007, did a mini rebuild, and ended up on another great run of success, which resulted in another WS.

By that logic then we should have been in good shape with Goldy and Arenado. They were both Mvp's (Goldy won). The point being, you can't win if you don't get to the dance.

[CCard]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

But you can't say that one pitcher and/or hitter wouldn't put the Cards in the playoffs. Your intent is to build a mythical juggernaut that will require a lot of losing seasons and still guarantee nothing. We disagree.

From what starting point - from keeping Gray, Arenado, Conteras, and Donovan, or from trading them (like they should) for prospects?

If we're assuming that they trade those four (like they should), then I can definitely say that one pitcher and/or hitter would almost certainly not put the Cardinals in the playoffs. Those four players alone were 10 fWAR in 2025. You'd have to add two All-Stars just to replace what you lost from a 78 win team.

Well now, Gray is a moot point since they traded him. Time will tell who got the better of that deal but I would submit that Gray would out pitch what they got in return. Maybe not, but who knows. Arenado had an awful year and is replaceable barring some resurgence. Contreras is your best hitter probably and who are you going to replace him with that makes you better? And Donovan might be your best overall player on the team(barring Winn). It's not just about the players but also about replacing them with quality. This team needs pitching most of all. If you keep Gray then add a quality starter, that almost gets you there. Adding a serious bat helps also, then adding a little quality to the relievers and you're a playoff team IMO. You go ahead with your sycophantic droning about rebuilding and I'll simply disagree.

Again - what is your actual starting point?

The NEED to trade Gray, Donovan, and Conteras, at least, to obtain more prospects to further the rebuilding of their young core of talent. But that is definitely going to work further against them in the short term of 2026, it will lower the talent level bar from where they even were in 2025. This is the precise point as which short term objectives and long term objectives conflict for this team - where they can't do both things at the same time.

Let me ask you something. How many prospects can you protect from the rule 5 draft? How many "prospects" can you stack up in the minors? Eventually these guys have to make it to the majors and produce. Right? I mean it's supposed to be a "pipeline" or these great prospects. Your going to get your wish. DeWitt has gutted the team and will probably gut it further. Now we get to see a perennial loser in St Louis for the next 3 years at least. What will be the excuse when that doesn't work like you all wanted it to? Well, blah blah blah. Where's that dynasty in Chicago? Or Houston? Or Cleveland? Or Atlanta? etc etc. No the dynasty is in L.A. where they spend money to win. Where the buy up talent.

[CCard]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

[mattmitchl44]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

I have to tip the hat to you Matt. Staying engaged with some of these whiners when they've had the plan explained a dozen times and STILL act like it isn't a plan. I gave up. Some of them seem so entitled I hope they don't expect life in general to give them what they want when they want it all the time or they will be disappointed.

[renostl]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

I don't disagree with the POV that they will have to spend.
How much can be discussed but for the sake of this question lets
say the $180M you mentioned.

Do you want $40 million of that going to 1 year of Gray?
Perhaps if he's the last piece, he not. WC can be debated but
acknowledge that there plenty of rationale to move him.

The Cards had bad money on the books the last 2+ seasons.
SG, WC, MM, SM, NA amounted to $88M add PG $113M on horses
that could no longer carry. That means every position filled
with prospects has to work out with plus production.

JMO, but if or when they spend it needs to be on different
players and the way to get there is to clear the books.
The roster needs to still be worked out
before I'll become more critical.

[Stlcardsblues]

Matt, in your own words, you said in order for the Cardinals to complete in 2026 they would need to spend $200mil, $210 mil, or slightly more.
Can we all just agree that the DeWitts can afford to do this? When you are a multi-Billionaire, 200 mil, isn’t that much, especially if you own a Sports team and you have aspirations of putting a winning team on the field.
Why own a Sports team if you aren’t going to try and win with it?
The sole reason DeWitt is doing this is to try and show the rest of the League his disdain for the current system, and to try and get enough support to make changes.
My belief is that if there aren’t enough changes made, DeWitt will sell the team. He has, or soon will have the payroll low enough for a potential buyer.

I've said - over and over and over again - that the Cardinals will EVENTUALLY have to raise payroll back to $175, $180, or more million when they are ready to actually compete again.

But they are NOT ready to compete right now. They have to do the hard work - which takes time - of rebuilding a strong foundation of young, cost controlled players in order to be able to compete again. There are few, if any, quick fixes. The only short cut is doing what they are doing - trading Gray, Arenado, Contreras, Donovan, etc. for the best prospects they can who can help jump start that rebuilding.

As they are NOT ready to compete right now, I don't care if they spend $50 million or $100 million or $150 million in 2026 or what you think they "can spend." As far as I'm concerned what they spend in 2026 is simply moot - it might be the difference between winning 68 games to 82 games, but that doesn't really concern me much.

Maybe they could spend $210, $220 million in 2026 and try to "compete" - and if all the players they were spending huge amounts of money on were signed for just 2026, I'd care less. But to spend that kind of money they would have to commit to older players on long, expensive contracts. And it is those contracts which well could be "underwater" - like Arenado's contract is now - in 2028, 2029, etc. that keep them from competing then. That's why they shouldn't go out and spend $210, $220 million now.

I’m done arguing with you! You’re either part of the Ownership group, or in their employ! Your steadfast stubbornness can only be explained by this. Trying to reason with you is like talking to a fence post!

I think I've explained the logic behind what they are doing quite precisely.

You can't possibly NOT understand that when you go out and spend big money (like the Phillies on Schwarber, Blue Jays on Cease, Orioles on Alonso, etc.) that the good years of those contracts are highly slanted toward coming in year 1, year 2 while the bad years come toward the end (and maybe the middle).

One last thing, what if the Cardinals would have signed Alonso last off season, and he had the year he had with the Cardinals instead of the Mets? How would that affected the rest of the lineup? What if Fedde would have been traded, like most of us wanted, last off season, and the package he would have brought back added to the roster? If McGreevy started out sooner than he did? Plus the Cardinals would have addd one more starter to the mix?
The cost of one starter and Alonso, you tell me that the Dewitts couldn’t afford that? Plus the package for Fedde. What if Wetherholt would have been brought up and given a chance, like the A’s did with Kurtz? What if they’d went out and got a decent right handed hitting outfielder, instead of Hampson, and Vilade? Bader as an example. He was good for the Phillies, didn’t cost much and there was no long term commitment.
Would this team have beaten the Dodgers? On paper, NO! But that’s why the game is played between the lines! Regardless, that team would have been fun to root for, the stadium would have been packed, and we wouldn’t be having this stupid argument!

If Mo had the benefit of hindsight like you do, he would’ve traded Fedde before the season and signed Bader.

But he didn’t.

This org needed/needs to accumulate prospects. They did that in 2025 TDL and are continuing to.

Also, this roster got stale…

I personally think you will be pleasantly surprised by the 2026 team…

The issue was Mo was too stubborn to see when the proper time to make moves were. Instead of selling during the correct timeline (in the offseason) he held Fedde to have Fedde prove him correct for the Edman trade. He has a history of misjudging when moves needed to be made. Some of them were extremely obvious and he missed the easy to see window.

[CCard]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

I don't disagree with the POV that they will have to spend.
How much can be discussed but for the sake of this question lets
say the $180M you mentioned.

Do you want $40 million of that going to 1 year of Gray?
Perhaps if he's the last piece, he not. WC can be debated but
acknowledge that there plenty of rationale to move him.

The Cards had bad money on the books the last 2+ seasons.
SG, WC, MM, SM, NA amounted to $88M add PG $113M on horses
that could no longer carry. That means every position filled
with prospects has to work out with plus production.

JMO, but if or when they spend it needs to be on different
players and the way to get there is to clear the books.
The roster needs to still be worked out
before I'll become more critical.

They could have kept Gray and spent 30 million on a top tier pitcher and still had money left over for other needs. That would put this team in contention for a playoff spot. They need top tier pitching. Now they have none. Who is there number 1 starter? It certainly isn't Pallante(who should be in the bullpen). McGreevy? He better show more than he has. Some of these other minor league untested pitchers? Not hardly.

[CCard]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

Do they not have some young cost controlled talent right now? Wynn, Scott, Walker, Noot, Hererra, etc etc? Give me a break.

[Goldfan]

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

I have to tip the hat to you Matt. Staying engaged with some of these whiners when they've had the plan explained a dozen times and STILL act like it isn't a plan. I gave up. Some of them seem so entitled I hope they don't expect life in general to give them what they want when they want it all the time or they will be disappointed.

So the same fella that back in 2011 told us the new way of doing business was developing from within. Years later he let us know that not only did he NOT do that he let the entire development system go unfunded and die…..but now that same fella is telling us again the new way of doing business is developing from within…..with the caveat this time…..he no longer is able to fund payroll like he did previously. Sorry once bitten twice shy

[mattmitchl44]

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

Do they not have some young cost controlled talent right now? Wynn, Scott, Walker, Noot, Hererra, etc etc? Give me a break.

They don't have anywhere close to enough young, cost controlled talent.

As I've stated before, they likely need Wetherholt and Doyle on the ML roster and performing at at least borderline All-Star levels to start to have enough young talent.

If Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player and IF Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player and IF Liberatore was closer to a #2 SP, then this would be a much different conversation, but that's about how far they are away from where they at least need to be.

[CCard]

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

Do they not have some young cost controlled talent right now? Wynn, Scott, Walker, Noot, Hererra, etc etc? Give me a break.

They don't have anywhere close to enough young, cost controlled talent.

As I've stated before, they likely need Wetherholt and Doyle on the ML roster and performing at at least borderline All-Star levels to start to have enough young talent.

If Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player and IF Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player and IF Liberatore was closer to a #2 SP, then this would be a much different conversation, but that's about how far they are away from where they at least need to be.

LOL...Doyle hasn't thrown a major league pitch and JJ hasn't swung a major league bat. Near all-star level? What are you smoking man. Where are you going to store these mythical players you magically manage to acquire? They have a little thing called the rule 5 draft, you may have heard of it. Part of it's existence is to prevent teams from burying players in the minors. They got lucky even getting to draft JJ. Please, stop smoking and playing the stratomatic. LOL

[mattmitchl44]

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

Do they not have some young cost controlled talent right now? Wynn, Scott, Walker, Noot, Hererra, etc etc? Give me a break.

They don't have anywhere close to enough young, cost controlled talent.

As I've stated before, they likely need Wetherholt and Doyle on the ML roster and performing at at least borderline All-Star levels to start to have enough young talent.

If Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player and IF Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player and IF Liberatore was closer to a #2 SP, then this would be a much different conversation, but that's about how far they are away from where they at least need to be.

LOL...Doyle hasn't thrown a major league pitch and JJ hasn't swung a major league bat. Near all-star level? What are you smoking man. Where are you going to store these mythical players you magically manage to acquire? They have a little thing called the rule 5 draft, you may have heard of it. Part of it's existence is to prevent teams from burying players in the minors. They got lucky even getting to draft JJ. Please, stop smoking and playing the stratomatic. LOL

The Cardinals aren't losing Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. to the Rule 5 draft. Right now, they don't have to worry about "burying" prospects in the minors. They have plenty of room to bring guys up as soon as they are ready to the ML team. And if they get to the point where they are doing a better job at identifying and developing prospects, the Rule 5 draft should be a net win for them - they'll be able to poach better/more guys from 29 other teams than they'll lose from their own.

You just keeping trying to invent weird angles to argue about.

As I've said before, they are ~10 fWAR short in terms of young, cost controlled talent. That's the equivalent of Wetherholt and Doyle being ~4 fWAR near All-Star level players and Liberatore being ~2 fWAR better than he has been, or it could have been by Walker, Gorman, and Liberatore being better than they have been.

[CCard]

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

You don't have to spend $350 million to compete with the Dodgers but you do have to spend $180-$2XX. You aren't going to compete with any top tier teams fielding a $100 million or less team. You'll just be a farm team then. Ask Pittsburgh or Miami about that.

And you aren't going to compete with the Dodgers if you spend $180-$2XX million but don't have a solid foundation of young, cost controlled talent to go with your spending.

The Cardinals can't spend their way to success from where they are right now.

Do they not have some young cost controlled talent right now? Wynn, Scott, Walker, Noot, Hererra, etc etc? Give me a break.

They don't have anywhere close to enough young, cost controlled talent.

As I've stated before, they likely need Wetherholt and Doyle on the ML roster and performing at at least borderline All-Star levels to start to have enough young talent.

If Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player and IF Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player and IF Liberatore was closer to a #2 SP, then this would be a much different conversation, but that's about how far they are away from where they at least need to be.

LOL...Doyle hasn't thrown a major league pitch and JJ hasn't swung a major league bat. Near all-star level? What are you smoking man. Where are you going to store these mythical players you magically manage to acquire? They have a little thing called the rule 5 draft, you may have heard of it. Part of it's existence is to prevent teams from burying players in the minors. They got lucky even getting to draft JJ. Please, stop smoking and playing the stratomatic. LOL

The Cardinals aren't losing Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. to the Rule 5 draft. Right now, they don't have to worry about "burying" prospects in the minors. They have plenty of room to bring guys up as soon as they are ready to the ML team. And if they get to the point where they are doing a better job at identifying and developing prospects, the Rule 5 draft should be a net win for them - they'll be able to poach better/more guys from 29 other teams than they'll lose from their own.

You just keeping trying to invent weird angles to argue about.

As I've said before, they are ~10 fWAR short in terms of young, cost controlled talent. That's the equivalent of Wetherholt and Doyle being ~4 fWAR near All-Star level players and Liberatore being ~2 fWAR better than he has been, or it could have been by Walker, Gorman, and Liberatore being better than they have been.

There's a thing called a 40 man roster. There's a thing called the Rule 5 draft. You might want to look them up. All your numbers mean Jack chit. You don't have any clue how a player will play in the majors. Doyle hasn't thrown a major league pitch. JJ hasn't seen a major league pitch and you want to anoint both 4 fWAR. You're a joke man. I'm sure Arenado had some great WAR value....until he didn't. Same goes for the pitching. Bottom line, you and your ilk want extreme losing for 3 to 5 years in the wet dream of building some mythical juggernaut. The history of baseball has proven you wrong. There is no reason a team can't walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. Building a strong farm system doesn't mean you have to subject fans to inferior mediocre baseball in the major leagues. Enough with your silly mantra.