Question for those not wanting to Rebuild

[Ike Hammett]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

Pujols was drafted in like the 13th round, The Yadfather was drafted in the fourth. Not all great players come from the draft lottery. Go draft and develop all you want, nobody is OR EVER HAS BEEN AGAINST IT. Give Jordan Walker and Masyn Winn etc a runway and a real chance, but give us some Goldy, Nado, Contreras, Gray action too!

When they are ready to compete, they should/will add more expensive veterans. But that time isn't now.

It was and IS! The Cards were a Chris Taylor homerun away and just as good as they Dodgers. They were a flukish inning away and favored over the Phillies. So you go out and find a better more upside upgrade and try again. Like get Dustin May to replace Mikolas, find an Emmett Sheheen or Gavin Stone to replace Matz and even save big bucks doing so. IT WAS THE MODEL!

[CCard]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

But you can't say that one pitcher and/or hitter wouldn't put the Cards in the playoffs. Your intent is to build a mythical juggernaut that will require a lot of losing seasons and still guarantee nothing. We disagree.

[CCard]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

[mattmitchl44]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

But you can't say that one pitcher and/or hitter wouldn't put the Cards in the playoffs. Your intent is to build a mythical juggernaut that will require a lot of losing seasons and still guarantee nothing. We disagree.

From what starting point - from keeping Gray, Arenado, Conteras, and Donovan, or from trading them (like they should) for prospects?

If we're assuming that they trade those four (like they should), then I can definitely say that one pitcher and/or hitter would almost certainly not put the Cardinals in the playoffs. Those four players alone were 10 fWAR in 2025. You'd have to add two All-Stars just to replace what you lost from a 78 win team.

[mattmitchl44]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

Good morning. If I get 15 wins from May on a personal best year, ten from Libby eight from McG, would that be considered progress. How many starter wins would it take to represent success in a rebuild.

[CCard]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

It’s quite low for a cardinal team and a franchise in general. But aren’t we gonna spend in a year or two? Once CBA is settled. And you say the old model works still. I’d agree if it were applied to a normal downturn. But this mud hole is deeper. Takes a bit different template. In my opinion the biggest change to both models is time.

[CCard]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

But you can't say that one pitcher and/or hitter wouldn't put the Cards in the playoffs. Your intent is to build a mythical juggernaut that will require a lot of losing seasons and still guarantee nothing. We disagree.

From what starting point - from keeping Gray, Arenado, Conteras, and Donovan, or from trading them (like they should) for prospects?

If we're assuming that they trade those four (like they should), then I can definitely say that one pitcher and/or hitter would almost certainly not put the Cardinals in the playoffs. Those four players alone were 10 fWAR in 2025. You'd have to add two All-Stars just to replace what you lost from a 78 win team.

Well now, Gray is a moot point since they traded him. Time will tell who got the better of that deal but I would submit that Gray would out pitch what they got in return. Maybe not, but who knows. Arenado had an awful year and is replaceable barring some resurgence. Contreras is your best hitter probably and who are you going to replace him with that makes you better? And Donovan might be your best overall player on the team(barring Winn). It's not just about the players but also about replacing them with quality. This team needs pitching most of all. If you keep Gray then add a quality starter, that almost gets you there. Adding a serious bat helps also, then adding a little quality to the relievers and you're a playoff team IMO. You go ahead with your sycophantic droning about rebuilding and I'll simply disagree.

[mattmitchl44]

Again, another "but they can't walk and chew gum at the same time" post. When will you guys understand that they can do both every (drat) season. They've proven they can because they did it and in the process won some championships.

Yes, and why did they do it? They didn't just start from scratch and were immediately successful. It took building of the developmental infrastructure to get it in place so that when they were at a point where they could be truly competitive, they could start bringing in those more established, potentially more expensive players.

We have to build that again (you know, reduild) to get to that point where we were in the past. Unless you think that we are producing players like we did in the first 10 years of the 2000s, then I would think you would agree that development needs more improvement.

Your point is pure foolishness. The Cards had the 16th highest payroll in baseball in 2025. For this franchise that's a disgrace. You all get on here and justify it, kissing DeWitt's a$%. You make me sick. They could easily be spending 50 million more, easily. Imagine what that could turn this team into.

An 81 win team?

Add an rbi guy to the lineup and a top of the rotation pitcher. Shore up the bullpen with some quality and not trade away one of the better Lefty relievers in baseball. Still think it's an 81 win team? This was with Gray, now they have to replace that talent.

If they had kept Gray, maybe 84 or 85 wins instead of 81. But that's about it.

You're guessing again. It's not a good look for a stats guy.

Gray was worth 3.6 fWAR last year, and he'll be another year over 30 in 2026. So 3 wins, maybe 4, is a good estimate.

All of your machinations keep coming back to the same place, an 84, 85 - maybe if most everything breaks right 86, 87 - win team. Unless you magically have the Cardinals increasing payroll to $210, $215, $225 million, that's where this roster is basically stuck until they develop more young talent.

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

That's exactly the thinking the Cardinals should, and apparently are, trying to get away from.

Having to go through more rounds of playoffs than in 2006 works against you. Having to likely go through multiple teams now like the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. who are always loaded because of how much more money they can spend works against you.

And, if they are not in a position where they can build a more solid 90+, or better yet 92+, win roster, I don't care whether they spend $50 million, $100 million, or $150 million. I'm not offended, or pacified, by how much money they spend or don't spend if they aren't competitive.

[mattmitchl44]

In 2011 the Dodgers payroll was around 110 million. The Cards and Rangers(who met in the WS) were in the low 90's millions. Not a lot of difference huh. Now fast forward, the Dodgers are what, 300-350 million? And where are the Cards, 120 million. It's a disgrace. A slap in the face to 3 million fans. And you have the audacity to get on here and justify it. How pathetic.

Thank you for making my point.

In 2011, the Dodgers were outspending the Cardinals by $20 million, or just under 20%. Now, even if the Cardinals spend $200 million, the Dodgers are outspending them by $125 million, or nearly 40%. And multiple other teams are on the Dodgers heels in terms of spending as well.

Baseball has changed and the Cardinals, now more than ever, have to develop more young, cost controlled talent to compete.

They aren't even trying to keep up with the teams just below the Dodgers and we're talking about a team that drew 3 million fans for nearly two decades. A team that has a profit of over 300 million a year. They could easily be a top 10 payroll. They CHOOSE not to. Saying baseball has changed doesn't mean that it hasn't changed for the Cards also. The Dodgers spend more because everything goes up, but it goes up for the Cards also. If a team doesn't try to win then why is it even playing? It's like the Dodgers and other top 10 teams are playing poker while the Cards are playing Uno. How do you not see this? If the strategy you push is so viable then why don't all winning teams push that more? It's obvious perennial losers do. How much talent have the Pirates alone traded away? What did it win them?

And as I've explained over and over again, it's about spending smartly. And WHEN to spend is a key component of spending smartly.

By all means, they should spend when they have an actual chance to compete - but right now they don't have an actual chance to compete.

Spending just to be mediocre isn't competing.

But you can't say that one pitcher and/or hitter wouldn't put the Cards in the playoffs. Your intent is to build a mythical juggernaut that will require a lot of losing seasons and still guarantee nothing. We disagree.

From what starting point - from keeping Gray, Arenado, Conteras, and Donovan, or from trading them (like they should) for prospects?

If we're assuming that they trade those four (like they should), then I can definitely say that one pitcher and/or hitter would almost certainly not put the Cardinals in the playoffs. Those four players alone were 10 fWAR in 2025. You'd have to add two All-Stars just to replace what you lost from a 78 win team.

Well now, Gray is a moot point since they traded him. Time will tell who got the better of that deal but I would submit that Gray would out pitch what they got in return. Maybe not, but who knows. Arenado had an awful year and is replaceable barring some resurgence. Contreras is your best hitter probably and who are you going to replace him with that makes you better? And Donovan might be your best overall player on the team(barring Winn). It's not just about the players but also about replacing them with quality. This team needs pitching most of all. If you keep Gray then add a quality starter, that almost gets you there. Adding a serious bat helps also, then adding a little quality to the relievers and you're a playoff team IMO. You go ahead with your sycophantic droning about rebuilding and I'll simply disagree.

Again - what is your actual starting point?

The NEED to trade Gray, Donovan, and Conteras, at least, to obtain more prospects to further the rebuilding of their young core of talent. But that is definitely going to work further against them in the short term of 2026, it will lower the talent level bar from where they even were in 2025. This is the precise point as which short term objectives and long term objectives conflict for this team - where they can't do both things at the same time.

[Hoosier59]

Matt, in your own words, you said in order for the Cardinals to complete in 2026 they would need to spend $200mil, $210 mil, or slightly more.
Can we all just agree that the DeWitts can afford to do this? When you are a multi-Billionaire, 200 mil, isn’t that much, especially if you own a Sports team and you have aspirations of putting a winning team on the field.
Why own a Sports team if you aren’t going to try and win with it?
The sole reason DeWitt is doing this is to try and show the rest of the League his disdain for the current system, and to try and get enough support to make changes.
My belief is that if there aren’t enough changes made, DeWitt will sell the team. He has, or soon will have the payroll low enough for a potential buyer.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Cards won the WS with an 83 win team. You get in the playoffs and you take your chances. Lightning can and does strike. Or you can take years, build some mythical beast and get bounced in the first series you play against a hot team. Ask the Yankees and the WS Champion Red Sox. We should be able to agree that a payroll of 120 to 130 is a disgrace for the Cardinal organization.

Surely you can see the difference between the 2006 Cardinals and the 2026 Cardinals, right? We were coming off 5 incredibly successful seasons, the last two seasons were 100 win team. We had the greatest player on earth at the time in his prime. The MV3 of Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen was still together. We had Chris Carpenter at the top of the rotation.

You can't look at anyone with a straight face and tell me that the two teams are similar at all.

EDIT: I should add to this that part of Walt Jocketty's downfall was not being able to see after 2007 that a change was needed and players like Jim Edmonds needed to be replaced. We ended up having a bad year in 2007, did a mini rebuild, and ended up on another great run of success, which resulted in another WS.

[mattmitchl44]

Matt, in your own words, you said in order for the Cardinals to complete in 2026 they would need to spend $200mil, $210 mil, or slightly more.
Can we all just agree that the DeWitts can afford to do this? When you are a multi-Billionaire, 200 mil, isn’t that much, especially if you own a Sports team and you have aspirations of putting a winning team on the field.
Why own a Sports team if you aren’t going to try and win with it?
The sole reason DeWitt is doing this is to try and show the rest of the League his disdain for the current system, and to try and get enough support to make changes.
My belief is that if there aren’t enough changes made, DeWitt will sell the team. He has, or soon will have the payroll low enough for a potential buyer.

I've said - over and over and over again - that the Cardinals will EVENTUALLY have to raise payroll back to $175, $180, or more million when they are ready to actually compete again.

But they are NOT ready to compete right now. They have to do the hard work - which takes time - of rebuilding a strong foundation of young, cost controlled players in order to be able to compete again. There are few, if any, quick fixes. The only short cut is doing what they are doing - trading Gray, Arenado, Contreras, Donovan, etc. for the best prospects they can who can help jump start that rebuilding.

As they are NOT ready to compete right now, I don't care if they spend $50 million or $100 million or $150 million in 2026 or what you think they "can spend." As far as I'm concerned what they spend in 2026 is simply moot - it might be the difference between winning 68 games to 82 games, but that doesn't really concern me much.

Maybe they could spend $210, $220 million in 2026 and try to "compete" - and if all the players they were spending huge amounts of money on were signed for just 2026, I'd care less. But to spend that kind of money they would have to commit to older players on long, expensive contracts. And it is those contracts which well could be "underwater" - like Arenado's contract is now - in 2028, 2029, etc. that keep them from competing then. That's why they shouldn't go out and spend $210, $220 million now.

[Goldfan]

Matt, in your own words, you said in order for the Cardinals to complete in 2026 they would need to spend $200mil, $210 mil, or slightly more.
Can we all just agree that the DeWitts can afford to do this? When you are a multi-Billionaire, 200 mil, isn’t that much, especially if you own a Sports team and you have aspirations of putting a winning team on the field.
Why own a Sports team if you aren’t going to try and win with it?
The sole reason DeWitt is doing this is to try and show the rest of the League his disdain for the current system, and to try and get enough support to make changes.
My belief is that if there aren’t enough changes made, DeWitt will sell the team. He has, or soon will have the payroll low enough for a potential buyer.

I've said - over and over and over again - that the Cardinals will EVENTUALLY have to raise payroll back to $175, $180, or more million when they are ready to actually compete again.

But they are NOT ready to compete right now. They have to do the hard work - which takes time - of rebuilding a strong foundation of young, cost controlled players in order to be able to compete again. There are few, if any, quick fixes. The only short cut is doing what they are doing - trading Gray, Arenado, Contreras, Donovan, etc. for the best prospects they can who can help jump start that rebuilding.

As they are NOT ready to compete right now, I don't care if they spend $50 million or $100 million or $150 million in 2026 or what you think they "can spend." As far as I'm concerned what they spend in 2026 is simply moot - it might be the difference between winning 68 games to 82 games, but that doesn't really concern me much.

Maybe they could spend $210, $220 million in 2026 and try to "compete" - and if all the players they were spending huge amounts of money on were signed for just 2026, I'd care less. But to spend that kind of money they would have to commit to older players on long, expensive contracts. And it is those contracts which well could be "underwater" - like Arenado's contract is now - in 2028, 2029, etc. that keep them from competing then. That's why they shouldn't go out and spend $210, $220 million now.

To make your scenario work the Cardinals MUST receive HIGHER quality talent in return for Gray, WC, Donny, NOOT than those players represent. If not this entire exercise is simply pushing BDW needing to spend down the road. The Cards have talent NOW…..if BDW spends now they could compete. Your theory is that Bloom will raid other clubs best talent and many of his draft picks will morph into All-stars and THEN BDW will ramp payroll to fill in holes. So again Bloom Prospects will need to be better than WC, Donny, Gray, Noot to achieve this baseball glory you always outline. You have no way of knowing this will happen other than hoping and I’ll challenge you to find any point in Cards history where this has happened. To contrary MOST of cards winning history timeframe is established MLB players being acquired.

[mattmitchl44]

To make your scenario work the Cardinals MUST receive HIGHER quality talent in return for Gray, WC, Donny, NOOT than those players represent.

The Cardinals should certainly be seeking prospects who have the potential (ceiling) of being as good, or better, than those veteran players.

The Cards have talent NOW…..if BDW spends now they could compete.

I really do not see evidence of that. By "compete" I don't mean an 85, 86 win team that sneaks into the playoffs as a WC and hopes for the best.

Your theory is that Bloom will raid other clubs best talent and many of his draft picks will morph into All-stars and THEN BDW will ramp payroll to fill in holes.

Yes, Bloom and Co. have to do a good job at exactly what they were hired for - identifying and acquiring the right prospects from other organizations and developing them. As I have said, they really need to develop at least one All-Star level cost controlled position player (Wetherholt?) and one All-Star level cost controlled SP (Doyle?), and then lesser pieces around them.

So again Bloom Prospects will need to be better than WC, Donny, Gray, Noot to achieve this baseball glory you always outline. You have no way of knowing this will happen other than hoping and I’ll challenge you to find any point in Cards history where this has happened.

It's not a matter of "knowing" anything. You can't know anything for certain about the future. But you can assess the probabilities and maximize your probability of success.

To contrary MOST of cards winning history timeframe is established MLB players being acquired.

The Cardinals success in the 2000s was fueled in significant part by having Pujols and Molina as huge "values" on the roster. That was what allowed the Cardinals to go out and add established players around them to be highly successful.

The Cardinals absolutely have to have a depth of young, cost controlled player "value" first to which they can add established players in the future.