Loser Mentality

[Carp4Cy]

Reading the "Loser Mentality" discussion as decades long Cardinal fan, I cannot help but think of Gibby, Whitey, Musial, etc and what they would say about the current state of Cardinals.

What "winners" do the Cardinals have in place? : FO, manager, coaches, support, players, etc. I believe they still say "it all starts at the top". Hopefully Bloom has brought in MLB competent personnel that can change this organizations trajectory.

Oli is a big part of this loser mentality. He’s not getting the best out of his players, or identifying needs and demanding replacements like Tony did. And he’s still here.

[11WSChamps]

Allow me to vent a little.....

When did the St. Louis Cardinals get such a loser mentality? When did it become acceptable for MLB baseball in St. Louis to look like AAA ball? When did it become okay for the Cardinals to not have any star power? When did it become okay for ownership to strip payroll down to nothing? When did the fans start accepting the idea that tanking (not even trying to compete) is okay? When did fans become in favor of collecting prospects instead of MLB players? When dod it become okay to have Oliver Marmol as a MLB manager?

Ok, I feel a little better.....maybe.

Tired of the Loser Mentality with the Cards and tired of reading the Loser Mentality nonsense I read on here.

Though the "loser mentality" originated a bit earlier, it was exposed the moment STL decided to re-unite and extend the careers of the ME3 (Wainwright/Molina/Pujols), rather than building young talent around N/A and Goldschmidt.
I was the only person to identify and explain it at the time.
Everyone said I was wrong.
Subsequent results have proven how prescient and correct I was.
It was obvious the organization did not care about winning.

Wrong.

It started when they started the blueprints for BPV.

From that point on winning was not the top priority.

[Melville]

Reading the "Loser Mentality" discussion as decades long Cardinal fan, I cannot help but think of Gibby, Whitey, Musial, etc and what they would say about the current state of Cardinals.

What "winners" do the Cardinals have in place? : FO, manager, coaches, support, players, etc. I believe they still say "it all starts at the top". Hopefully Bloom has brought in MLB competent personnel that can change this organizations trajectory.

Oli is a big part of this loser mentality. He’s not getting the best out of his players, or identifying needs and demanding replacements like Tony did. And he’s still here.

Every day The Marmot is employed is ample evidence that the owner is not currently committed to winning.

[Melville]

Allow me to vent a little.....

When did the St. Louis Cardinals get such a loser mentality? When did it become acceptable for MLB baseball in St. Louis to look like AAA ball? When did it become okay for the Cardinals to not have any star power? When did it become okay for ownership to strip payroll down to nothing? When did the fans start accepting the idea that tanking (not even trying to compete) is okay? When did fans become in favor of collecting prospects instead of MLB players? When dod it become okay to have Oliver Marmol as a MLB manager?

Ok, I feel a little better.....maybe.

Tired of the Loser Mentality with the Cards and tired of reading the Loser Mentality nonsense I read on here.

Though the "loser mentality" originated a bit earlier, it was exposed the moment STL decided to re-unite and extend the careers of the ME3 (Wainwright/Molina/Pujols), rather than building young talent around N/A and Goldschmidt.
I was the only person to identify and explain it at the time.
Everyone said I was wrong.
Subsequent results have proven how prescient and correct I was.
It was obvious the organization did not care about winning.

Wrong.

It started when they started the blueprints for BPV.

From that point on winning was not the top priority.

As I correctly stated, the abandonment of the commitment to winning preceded the extension of the ME3 era.
The reunion legacy tour simply was a public admission of that reality - which I understood and explained at the time.

[Goldfan]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

It’s not a simple fix. What makes you think those free agents want to sign with a team with St. Louis? It would be dumb for St. Louis to give up draft picks to sign those aging players and trade even more prospects for a pitcher. Just terrible strategy to invest more and get bogged down in more aging players with long term contracts. That rotation is still not great. It would set the cardinals up for more sustained mediocrity

Bloom is already on record as being in the market for a FA SP and trading Gray, Donny, others with a very good chance of receiving a SP. So this losing “prospects” fear is unfounded. Building the Minor leagues has nothing to do with the plan above. You guys who think Bloom is going to hit on every draft pick and they will become All-stars in 5yrs???

[mattmitchl44]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

It’s not a simple fix. What makes you think those free agents want to sign with a team with St. Louis? It would be dumb for St. Louis to give up draft picks to sign those aging players and trade even more prospects for a pitcher. Just terrible strategy to invest more and get bogged down in more aging players with long term contracts. That rotation is still not great. It would set the cardinals up for more sustained mediocrity

Bloom is already on record as being in the market for a FA SP and trading Gray, Donny, others with a very good chance of receiving a SP. So this losing “prospects” fear is unfounded. Building the Minor leagues has nothing to do with the plan above. You guys who think Bloom is going to hit on every draft pick and they will become All-stars in 5yrs???

They should be focused on potentially getting ML-ready SP prospects in any of their trades, not guys who already have several years of ML service time.

And if/when they are in the market for FA SPs:

The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.

[Goldfan]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

It’s not a simple fix. What makes you think those free agents want to sign with a team with St. Louis? It would be dumb for St. Louis to give up draft picks to sign those aging players and trade even more prospects for a pitcher. Just terrible strategy to invest more and get bogged down in more aging players with long term contracts. That rotation is still not great. It would set the cardinals up for more sustained mediocrity

Bloom is already on record as being in the market for a FA SP and trading Gray, Donny, others with a very good chance of receiving a SP. So this losing “prospects” fear is unfounded. Building the Minor leagues has nothing to do with the plan above. You guys who think Bloom is going to hit on every draft pick and they will become All-stars in 5yrs???

They should be focused on potentially getting ML-ready SP prospects in any of their trades, not guys who already have several years of ML service time.

And if/when they are in the market for FA SPs:

The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.

Matt I still don’t understand your plan. Either you think Bloom will hit on every draft pick and we’ll have an entire starting squad of young all-stars leading us to the promise land in 5-7yrs…or you’re just going to be replacing the guys on the ‘26 team with youngsters and you’ll still require FA’s to supplement and you’ll need to spend money.
Winn
JJ
Herrera
Contreras
Burly
And even possible Gorman
Are 5-6 very good player the Cards have NOW and IF supplemented with a Bellinger and TGKS could be a VERY formidable lineup which could win NOW
This doesn’t mean Bloom develop program needs to stop, on the contrary it keeps going
But you bring butts back to Busch…..give BDW his increased Revenue…..and WIN GAMES
So again tell me exactly how this great transformation is going to happen in 5-7yrs but can’t happen NOW

[Cardinals4Life]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

Love it!

Never happening though.

Agreed, but to say we can't compete next year is COMPLETELY wrong. Of course they can. They are CHOOSING not to.

I like this better, personally.

Rotation:
Valdez (FA)
Gray
Ragans (Trade)
Liberatore
McGreevy

Lineup:
Wetherholt 2B
Herrera C
Tatis Jr. (Trade) RF
Suarez (FA) 3B
Contreras 1B
Burleson LF
Gorman DH
Winn SS
Scott II CF

Bench: Crooks, Saggese, Church, Torres

Pen: Svanson, O'Brien, Graceffo, Leahy, Romero, Maton (FA), 2 others

[Cardinals4Life]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

It’s not a simple fix. What makes you think those free agents want to sign with a team with St. Louis? It would be dumb for St. Louis to give up draft picks to sign those aging players and trade even more prospects for a pitcher. Just terrible strategy to invest more and get bogged down in more aging players with long term contracts. That rotation is still not great. It would set the cardinals up for more sustained mediocrity

Bloom is already on record as being in the market for a FA SP and trading Gray, Donny, others with a very good chance of receiving a SP. So this losing “prospects” fear is unfounded. Building the Minor leagues has nothing to do with the plan above. You guys who think Bloom is going to hit on every draft pick and they will become All-stars in 5yrs???

They should be focused on potentially getting ML-ready SP prospects in any of their trades, not guys who already have several years of ML service time.

And if/when they are in the market for FA SPs:

The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.

Matt I still don’t understand your plan. Either you think Bloom will hit on every draft pick and we’ll have an entire starting squad of young all-stars leading us to the promise land in 5-7yrs…or you’re just going to be replacing the guys on the ‘26 team with youngsters and you’ll still require FA’s to supplement and you’ll need to spend money.
Winn
JJ
Herrera
Contreras
Burly
And even possible Gorman
Are 5-6 very good player the Cards have NOW and IF supplemented with a Bellinger and TGKS could be a VERY formidable lineup which could win NOW
This doesn’t mean Bloom develop program needs to stop, on the contrary it keeps going
But you bring butts back to Busch…..give BDW his increased Revenue…..and WIN GAMES
So again tell me exactly how this great transformation is going to happen in 5-7yrs but can’t happen NOW

Exactly!

You have enough young, complimentary pieces in place already. (Burleson, Herrera, Winn, JJW, Scott II)
Add in the missing pieces now AND keep developing the minors.

In 5-6 years, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, JJW, etc. will become expensive or be gone.....But then the argument will be "we don't have any money to spend in free agency, because we have to extend some guys." There is ALWAYS an excuse not to spend. ALWAYS!

[mattmitchl44]

Matt I still don’t understand your plan.

The plan is they have to get to here:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)

- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But they are not close right now to having those 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players filling those roles with even average levels of productivity. They don't have enough young cost controlled talent to build off of successfully. For a start, they need Wetherholt (or someone else) to actually be a 4+ WAR player in the majors, they need Doyle (or someone else) to actually be a front of rotation SP. Until those things actually happen, they don't have the foundation of young talent necessary.

So their priority right now has to be acquiring enough young players and prospects that can build out their depth and get them to having those 18 necessary pre-ARB and ARB slots filled with ML quality players.

But to do that, they need to trade the veteran players they have now (Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc.) to obtain more young players and prospects. So they likely aren't going to have their "quota" of 8 full market value veterans because they aren't ready to win now anyway. As previously noted, they may pick up a few, cheap veterans who they look to flip in 2026.

But, once they get to the place where they have that foundation of 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players in two or three years, then they will KNOW exactly what holes they need to fill with the 8 full market value veterans. THEN they can start looking to add serious FA acquisitions, who are hopefully still close to their primes, as they pivot to trying to "win now" in 2028, 2029, etc.

[Goldfan]

Matt I still don’t understand your plan.

The plan is they have to get to here:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)

- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But they are not close right now to having those 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players filling those roles with even average levels of productivity. They don't have enough young cost controlled talent to build off of successfully. For a start, they need Wetherholt (or someone else) to actually be a 4+ WAR player in the majors, they need Doyle (or someone else) to actually be a front of rotation SP. Until those things actually happen, they don't have the foundation of young talent necessary.

So their priority right now has to be acquiring enough young players and prospects that can build out their depth and get them to having those 18 necessary pre-ARB and ARB slots filled with ML quality players.

But to do that, they need to trade the veteran players they have now (Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc.) to obtain more young players and prospects. So they likely aren't going to have their "quota" of 8 full market value veterans because they aren't ready to win now anyway. As previously noted, they may pick up a few, cheap veterans who they look to flip in 2026.

But, once they get to the place where they have that foundation of 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players in two or three years, then they will KNOW exactly what holes they need to fill with the 8 full market value veterans. THEN they can start looking to add serious FA acquisitions, who are hopefully still close to their primes, as they pivot to trying to "win now" in 2028, 2029, etc.

What’s the quality of your 3 matriculated prospects to MLB team each season? You expect All-stars to be flowing out of Blooms system? When in Cards history has this happened???
Here’s the issue…..this fanbase to going under, you can’t keep rolling out these exploratory prospects teams that at best get close to .500
But the time ‘29 gets here baseball will be an afterthought for young people…..if it isn’t already.
As I’ve stated you have
Winn
JJ
Herrera
Burly
WC
Throw in Gorman
Bring in the all-stars and this team can win
That doesn’t mean stop drafting talent or trading for prospects. It means walk and chew gum at the same time.
If you want to go your route then its time to tank for 3-4 yrs and harvest those top prospects….thats the only way you’re getting there.

[mattmitchl44]

Matt I still don’t understand your plan.

The plan is they have to get to here:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)

- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But they are not close right now to having those 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players filling those roles with even average levels of productivity. They don't have enough young cost controlled talent to build off of successfully. For a start, they need Wetherholt (or someone else) to actually be a 4+ WAR player in the majors, they need Doyle (or someone else) to actually be a front of rotation SP. Until those things actually happen, they don't have the foundation of young talent necessary.

So their priority right now has to be acquiring enough young players and prospects that can build out their depth and get them to having those 18 necessary pre-ARB and ARB slots filled with ML quality players.

But to do that, they need to trade the veteran players they have now (Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc.) to obtain more young players and prospects. So they likely aren't going to have their "quota" of 8 full market value veterans because they aren't ready to win now anyway. As previously noted, they may pick up a few, cheap veterans who they look to flip in 2026.

But, once they get to the place where they have that foundation of 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players in two or three years, then they will KNOW exactly what holes they need to fill with the 8 full market value veterans. THEN they can start looking to add serious FA acquisitions, who are hopefully still close to their primes, as they pivot to trying to "win now" in 2028, 2029, etc.

What’s the quality of your 3 matriculated prospects to MLB team each season? You expect All-stars to be flowing out of Blooms system? When in Cards history has this happened???

The guys in the 10 "high value" starting positions need to be solid 2+ fWAR players (like Herrera, Burleson, Donovan, etc.), with 3 of them being above that at around 3-4 fWAR (like Winn).

The guys in the 8 "lower value" bench/RP positions need to be at least average to above average in their roles.

[Goldfan]

Matt I still don’t understand your plan.

The plan is they have to get to here:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)

- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But they are not close right now to having those 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players filling those roles with even average levels of productivity. They don't have enough young cost controlled talent to build off of successfully. For a start, they need Wetherholt (or someone else) to actually be a 4+ WAR player in the majors, they need Doyle (or someone else) to actually be a front of rotation SP. Until those things actually happen, they don't have the foundation of young talent necessary.

So their priority right now has to be acquiring enough young players and prospects that can build out their depth and get them to having those 18 necessary pre-ARB and ARB slots filled with ML quality players.

But to do that, they need to trade the veteran players they have now (Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc.) to obtain more young players and prospects. So they likely aren't going to have their "quota" of 8 full market value veterans because they aren't ready to win now anyway. As previously noted, they may pick up a few, cheap veterans who they look to flip in 2026.

But, once they get to the place where they have that foundation of 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players in two or three years, then they will KNOW exactly what holes they need to fill with the 8 full market value veterans. THEN they can start looking to add serious FA acquisitions, who are hopefully still close to their primes, as they pivot to trying to "win now" in 2028, 2029, etc.

What’s the quality of your 3 matriculated prospects to MLB team each season? You expect All-stars to be flowing out of Blooms system? When in Cards history has this happened???

The guys in the 10 "high value" starting positions need to be solid 2+ fWAR players (like Herrera, Burleson, Donovan, etc.), with 3 of them being above that at around 3-4 fWAR (like Winn).

The guys in the 8 "lower value" bench/RP positions need to be at least average to above average in their roles.

You still lack the All-stars!!! We have what you list NOW…..no need to wait….they’re here in ‘26

[mattmitchl44]

Matt I still don’t understand your plan.

The plan is they have to get to here:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)

- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But they are not close right now to having those 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players filling those roles with even average levels of productivity. They don't have enough young cost controlled talent to build off of successfully. For a start, they need Wetherholt (or someone else) to actually be a 4+ WAR player in the majors, they need Doyle (or someone else) to actually be a front of rotation SP. Until those things actually happen, they don't have the foundation of young talent necessary.

So their priority right now has to be acquiring enough young players and prospects that can build out their depth and get them to having those 18 necessary pre-ARB and ARB slots filled with ML quality players.

But to do that, they need to trade the veteran players they have now (Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc.) to obtain more young players and prospects. So they likely aren't going to have their "quota" of 8 full market value veterans because they aren't ready to win now anyway. As previously noted, they may pick up a few, cheap veterans who they look to flip in 2026.

But, once they get to the place where they have that foundation of 18 pre-ARB or ARB-eligible players in two or three years, then they will KNOW exactly what holes they need to fill with the 8 full market value veterans. THEN they can start looking to add serious FA acquisitions, who are hopefully still close to their primes, as they pivot to trying to "win now" in 2028, 2029, etc.

What’s the quality of your 3 matriculated prospects to MLB team each season? You expect All-stars to be flowing out of Blooms system? When in Cards history has this happened???

The guys in the 10 "high value" starting positions need to be solid 2+ fWAR players (like Herrera, Burleson, Donovan, etc.), with 3 of them being above that at around 3-4 fWAR (like Winn).

The guys in the 8 "lower value" bench/RP positions need to be at least average to above average in their roles.

You still lack the All-stars!!! We have what you list NOW…..no need to wait….they’re here in ‘26

No, they DON"T have 10 cost controlled "high value" position guys who are 2+ fWAR and 8 cost controlled "lower value" position guys who are solid.

As I showed in the other thread, they are at least 3 "high value" position and 3 "lower value" position guys short right now.

They are considerably short on cost controlled talent.

And, yes, they need Winn, Wetherholt, and Doyle to be somewhere between above average player and All-star.

[Stlcardsblues]

Allow me to vent a little.....

When did the St. Louis Cardinals get such a loser mentality? When did it become acceptable for MLB baseball in St. Louis to look like AAA ball? When did it become okay for the Cardinals to not have any star power? When did it become okay for ownership to strip payroll down to nothing? When did the fans start accepting the idea that tanking (not even trying to compete) is okay? When did fans become in favor of collecting prospects instead of MLB players? When dod it become okay to have Oliver Marmol as a MLB manager?

Ok, I feel a little better.....maybe.

Tired of the Loser Mentality with the Cards and tired of reading the Loser Mentality nonsense I read on here.

A few of us pointed out the issues that were forming five years ago. We were called whiney and entitled by many.

We are now in a place where they destroyed the organization. For those of us who look at the current state of the organization, we can see it has to be a long painful rebuild.

That doesn’t mean we are accepting where we are. The empty stadium shows that.

It’s now on Bloom and ownership to fix this. Time will tell if it’s being done correctly. There is no path to quick fix the damage.

What would you be looking to do to fix this?

[Cardinals4Life]

Allow me to vent a little.....

When did the St. Louis Cardinals get such a loser mentality? When did it become acceptable for MLB baseball in St. Louis to look like AAA ball? When did it become okay for the Cardinals to not have any star power? When did it become okay for ownership to strip payroll down to nothing? When did the fans start accepting the idea that tanking (not even trying to compete) is okay? When did fans become in favor of collecting prospects instead of MLB players? When dod it become okay to have Oliver Marmol as a MLB manager?

Ok, I feel a little better.....maybe.

Tired of the Loser Mentality with the Cards and tired of reading the Loser Mentality nonsense I read on here.

A few of us pointed out the issues that were forming five years ago. We were called whiney and entitled by many.

We are now in a place where they destroyed the organization. For those of us who look at the current state of the organization, we can see it has to be a long painful rebuild.

That doesn’t mean we are accepting where we are. The empty stadium shows that.

It’s now on Bloom and ownership to fix this. Time will tell if it’s being done correctly. There is no path to quick fix the damage.

What would you be looking to do to fix this?

I would go get a few pieces in free agency/via trade. Add them to the cost-controlled young guys we have currently (who, btw, are solid complimentary pieces).

2 SPs
2 Bats
1 or 2 BP arms

Examples:
Valdez (FA), Ragans (Trade)
Valdez, Gray, Ragans, Liberatore, McGreevy

Looks formidable.

Suarez (FA), Tatis Jr. (Trade)

Wetherholt 2B
Herrera C
Tatis Jr. RF
Suarez 3B
Contreras 1B
Burleson LF
Winn SS
Gorman DH
Scott II CF

Looks formidable.

Maton (FA), Helsely (FA), Romero, O'Brien, Svanson, Graceffo, Leahy

Obviously just examples. Names could change. But this is a solution. They just don't want to do what it takes to makenit happen.