Loser Mentality

[OldRed]

I've said it again and again, but a lot of fans here just refuse to understand a rebuild. It's why DeWitt was committed to status quo for so many years.

And I can understand why he didn't take more risks in the high priced free agent market. Look at how fans react when Arenado or Goldschmidt aged. They turn on them. And like it or not, the team just can't afford to throw money on top of money to make their problems go away. So, they end up signing "safe" free agents who aren't that good. But hey, they're competitive and that's what the fans want.

Nevermind that basically every team that is successful today have done rebuilds, aside from maybe LA and the Yankees. You can only throw money at the problem for so long. Eventually you have to change the way you do things.

It's not a loser mentality. It is accepting reality. I've heard for years how bad this team is. How cheap DeWitt is. How bad Mo is. How terrible the manager is. How their prospects aren't any good. And somehow you think this team can just fix that overnight? Come on.

Totally disagree. You sound like Cranny defending an ownership that was concerned with profits taking advantage of a loyal fan base, much like P.T. Barnum. This rebuild hasn't been going for many years or they would have improved drafting, scouting, and coaching in the minors and hired a real Major League manager.

[mattmitchl44]

Yeah, Schwarber is estimated for 4 yrs./$112 million ($28 million AAV) plus the draft pick, and Bellinger for 5 yrs./$135 million ($27 million AAV). So that's $55 million AAV right there, and god knows how much for the FA SP or the SP to be traded for. AND how much they have to send to make Gray and Arenado go away.



It's just doing more of what has failed for the last decade or so.

AND if they TRADE for an ace-like starting pitcher, because does anyone really think they're going to spend $80+ million for three free agents, how much is that going to set back the gains we've made on the farm? If he's saying we're keeping Wetherholt, who all would we have to trade to get that kind of pitcher? That's a lot of possible high end talent gone.

Yeah, if he's saying trade for a #2 SP, then that's probably going to mean trading Doyle (if he's not trading Wetherholt).

[sikeston bulldog2]

Yeah, Schwarber is estimated for 4 yrs./$112 million ($28 million AAV) plus the draft pick, and Bellinger for 5 yrs./$135 million ($27 million AAV). So that's $55 million AAV right there, and god knows how much for the FA SP or the SP to be traded for. AND how much they have to send to make Gray and Arenado go away.



It's just doing more of what has failed for the last decade or so.

AND if they TRADE for an ace-like starting pitcher, because does anyone really think they're going to spend $80+ million for three free agents, how much is that going to set back the gains we've made on the farm? If he's saying we're keeping Wetherholt, who all would we have to trade to get that kind of pitcher? That's a lot of possible high end talent gone.

They will spend one day as that will be the final piece. As for the farm. Although farm fed, with possible upside, they still are mere fodder for bigger name trades. Some should be left to bloom.

[rockondlouie]

Only an idiot would look at this team and think oh with just a few tweaks this team could contend for a World Series. They need a 1 and 2 starter and a 3,4 and 5 hitter. They aren’t going to just snap their fingers and do all of that and spending hasn’t helped the Mets and padres. Mo destroyed the organization it has to rebuilt from the ground up. It’s not a loser mentality from fans on here it’s being realistic and rational

+1 ozzie

And I'll add BDWJr was his partner in this crime since he could've fired Mo years ago.

TGKS LF/DH
JJ 2b
Herrera C
Bellinger RF
Contreras 1B
Burly LF/DH
Gorman 3b
Winn SS
Scott CF

FA
Receive from trade P
Libby
McGreevy
Leahy
This is a rather simple fix and will make the playoffs. The top 6 will keep the lineup moving and score runs

Love it!

Never happening though.

[RamFan08NY]

Nothing we didn’t see in the 70’s and 90’s, but go ahead and vent. Don’t want Bloom thinking we’ll be patient.

Exactly. The younger fans think the Cardinals have been winners forever. I dont think they had one winning season in the 70s . However, they did turn it around under new leadership to win the WS by 82, so we can hope for a repeat of that with the new leadership.

[Carp4Cy]

Nothing we didn’t see in the 70’s and 90’s, but go ahead and vent. Don’t want Bloom thinking we’ll be patient.

He’s got a point though. Most fans aren’t going to be patient to the point where they keep buying season tickets or even single tickets to watch Aaa talent at MLB prices.

This is the real cost of trying to save Bills money and not simultaneously maintaining the minor development and the big league roster. I wasn’t around in the 70s, but how did the attendance look then?

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Totally disagree. You sound like Cranny defending an ownership that was concerned with profits taking advantage of a loyal fan base, much like P.T. Barnum. This rebuild hasn't been going for many years or they would have improved drafting, scouting, and coaching in the minors and hired a real Major League manager.

Yes!! Exactly. This rebuild hasn't been going on for many years. In fact, I'd say it's been going on for about four months at this point. Which is why some of are trying to preach a bare minimum of patience with it. Luckily they had the smarts to bring it in Bloom to evaluate the developmental system in 2024 before running it last year, or we might have just started.

Had the rebuild started after, say, 2023, when the team could have sucked it up and traded Arenado and Goldschmidt when they still had value, we might be done with the rebuild by now. But, as we have seen by the reactions of some people who have been in a rebuild for four months, fans would have probably rioted in the streets. They were (upset) when we traded Ryan Helsley last year, but maybe you would have felt better if they kept him, he imploded like he did in NY, and we got nothing out of it.

And you and others keep ignoring anyone who says that this is temporary. No one in favor of a rebuild wants or expects payroll to be reduced forever. It is pretty lame to keep resorting to that argument.

[OldRed]

Totally disagree. You sound like Cranny defending an ownership that was concerned with profits taking advantage of a loyal fan base, much like P.T. Barnum. This rebuild hasn't been going for many years or they would have improved drafting, scouting, and coaching in the minors and hired a real Major League manager.

Yes!! Exactly. This rebuild hasn't been going on for many years. In fact, I'd say it's been going on for about four months at this point. Which is why some of are trying to preach a bare minimum of patience with it. Luckily they had the smarts to bring it in Bloom to evaluate the developmental system in 2024 before running it last year, or we might have just started.

Had the rebuild started after, say, 2023, when the team could have sucked it up and traded Arenado and Goldschmidt when they still had value, we might be done with the rebuild by now. But, as we have seen by the reactions of some people who have been in a rebuild for four months, fans would have probably rioted in the streets. They were (upset) when we traded Ryan Helsley last year, but maybe you would have felt better if they kept him, he imploded like he did in NY, and we got nothing out of it.

And you and others keep ignoring anyone who says that this is temporary. No one in favor of a rebuild wants or expects payroll to be reduced forever. It is pretty lame to keep resorting to that argument.

From your original post I can't figure out if we are agreeing or disagreeing. In my opinion, they were patient because attendance and profits were good. They milked the fans while the entire system (minor league) was in a shamble because they didn't invest in drafting, scouting and player development. This entire process of rebuilding should have started several years ago, just not 4 months ago.

[mattmitchl44]

Nothing we didn’t see in the 70’s and 90’s, but go ahead and vent. Don’t want Bloom thinking we’ll be patient.

He’s got a point though. Most fans aren’t going to be patient to the point where they keep buying season tickets or even single tickets to watch Aaa talent at MLB prices.

This is the real cost of trying to save Bills money and not simultaneously maintaining the minor development and the big league roster. I wasn’t around in the 70s, but how did the attendance look then?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/

Attendance was 2.1 and 2.0 million when the Cardinals were going 1-1 in WS in 1967-1968.

Then it was fairly stable from 1969 to 1981 (1.7, 1.6, 1.6, 1.2 (156 games), 1.6, 1.8, 1.7, 1.2, 1.7, 1.3, 1.6, 1.4, and 1.0 (103 games). So they averaged about 1.55 million per 162 game season, down about 25% from 1967-1968.

Then was 2.1 million again when they won the WS in 1982.

[Cusecards]

It's not a "Loser Mentality". It's dealing with reality.

The reality is that this team simply does not have enough talent under years of team control where, even if you added another $50 or $55 million in FAs (like Bo Bichette and Dylan Cease), they are going to be really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, Padres, etc. to get to an NLCS or WS.

There is no "quick fix" for this team. They need to develop a 4+ WAR, young, cost controlled position player - hopefully Wetherholt will be that in 2-3 years. They need to develop a young, cost controlled, front of rotation SP - hopefully Doyle will be that in 2-3 years. And, right now, the important job it trading players like Gray, Donovan, Contreras, etc. who may bring you back additional prospects who could be those guys if Wetherholt or Doyle aren't. Right now the priority is giving themselves more chance to "hit" on the kinds of prospects they need to hit on.

Once you get a couple of those guys along with Winn, Herrera, Burleson, Liberatore, etc. THEN you have a critical mass of young, cost controlled talent that you can go out and supplement with expensive FAs and expect to compete at the highest levels in the NL.

Good points!
Looking forward to what appears to be a rejuvenated farm system over the next 2/3 years.

Look, there is a smart guy in charge with a plan who has hired some very good development people. Let's give it a couple of seasons to see how he does. At least there is a plan, rather than wandering aimlessly without a plan, and making bonehead moves. The only thing I find disappointing so for is the retention of Marmol, but again, perhaps Bloom has a plan there as well. We shall see. This year we get to watch JJ develop. JJ and Winn up the middle will be fun. I really like Donovan, but understand that the he may well have more value as a trade chip since we are not ready to really challenge the good clubs. Fine. Shedding Nado, Gray, and even Willy doesn't bother me. Get some good young talent and let it develop and compete in a season or two. I still think if they had a really good manager and pitching coach, they would get more out of any roster than the current sad crew.

Agree
Everyone here is a fan. Obviously we all vent/root/etc in different ways.
My fingers are crossed that they are heading in the right direction with the farm system.
JJ, Doyle, Baez, etc should all be fun to watch.
As for Manager. I think we can definitely do better.
But....I can understand how Bloom would want to wait on making a change with the staff. May not want to make too many changes right off the bat??
I myself would not rush to spend big on FA’s right now.
I especially would not do it just to placate the fans(spend just for PR reasons).

I certainly have no expectations of them signing big name FAs. Not going to happen. There will be the odd bounce back one year deal, probably for pitching. I have enjoyed watching Winn play SS. I will enjoy watching JJ develop (hopefully). This is a .500 team for another year, especially with the guy in the dugout who really cannot seem to get the most out of his lineup. They make stupid mistakes and the fundamental play needs to be cleaned up. They take stupid ABs quite often. But they do have some guys who are fun to watch. Unfortunately Donovan was one of them, and he is most likely gone in trade. There needs to be talent improvement of course, but there also needs to be "culture" improvement. I think Bloom will slowly make the organization competitive again, but I don't think the guy in the dugout should be there long-term. Again, we shall see. Bloom is no idiot. He sees everything we do and obviously has more inside info than any of us, and we have no idea what pressure or direction from ownership is either. Besides JJ and Doyle, there are interesting prospects in the pipeline, but not for next season. As I said, at least it feels like there is a plan now and someone driving..... a refreshing change. That was on ownership. They could have put MO out to pasture a few years ago and didn't do so.

They definitely need improvement with fundamentals.
Without being on the “inside” it’s tough to say who is at fault?
I find it hard to believe that the players all have low baseball IQ’s?
Plate discipline and base running are poor!
Coaching certainly has to take a share of the blame.
Pop Warner especially is a problem.

[Cusecards]

Agree
Everyone here is a fan. Obviously we all vent/root/etc in different ways.
My fingers are crossed that they are heading in the right direction with the farm system.
JJ, Doyle, Baez, etc should all be fun to watch.
As for Manager. I think we can definitely do better.
But....I can understand how Bloom would want to wait on making a change with the staff. May not want to make too many changes right off the bat??
I myself would not rush to spend big on FA’s right now.
I especially would not do it just to placate the fans(spend just for PR reasons).

Very sensible take. I'm with you on Oli. I've mellowed on him quite a bit over the last two years, but I'm still not thrilled with the guy. Basically, I don't think he's as bad as a lot of people, but I can't say I think he's really good either. I'm willing to give Bloom the chance to work with the guy and see how it works out for him.

I'm a bit more optimistic on the rebuild length than some others. Not that I think we're going to be really good in 2027, but I think we could start seeing the beginning of a pretty good team. A lot depends on how some or all of the young players that didn't perform last year can get it together for this year. But yeah, I think that spending in free agency right now would be a mistake. We gotta at least save one year to evaluate some things before diving right in to spending big money on guys.

One step at a time.
Lots of guys to evaluate in 2026. Looks like more to follow which is a plus.
Walk before you can run.
As for Oli? He can’t be blamed for areas lacking talent but he has to take some share of the blame for poor team fundamentals.
I also see him as below average in decision making.
I question his “feel” for the game.
Some guys have it(TLR, etc) and some just don’t.

[ilcubuffs]

Reading the "Loser Mentality" discussion as decades long Cardinal fan, I cannot help but think of Gibby, Whitey, Musial, etc and what they would say about the current state of Cardinals.

What "winners" do the Cardinals have in place? : FO, manager, coaches, support, players, etc. I believe they still say "it all starts at the top". Hopefully Bloom has brought in MLB competent personnel that can change this organizations trajectory.

[desertrat23]

I've said it again and again, but a lot of fans here just refuse to understand a rebuild. It's why DeWitt was committed to status quo for so many years.

And I can understand why he didn't take more risks in the high priced free agent market. Look at how fans react when Arenado or Goldschmidt aged. They turn on them. And like it or not, the team just can't afford to throw money on top of money to make their problems go away. So, they end up signing "safe" free agents who aren't that good. But hey, they're competitive and that's what the fans want.

Nevermind that basically every team that is successful today have done rebuilds, aside from maybe LA and the Yankees. You can only throw money at the problem for so long. Eventually you have to change the way you do things.

It's not a loser mentality. It is accepting reality. I've heard for years how bad this team is. How cheap DeWitt is. How bad Mo is. How terrible the manager is. How their prospects aren't any good. And somehow you think this team can just fix that overnight? Come on.

Totally disagree. You sound like Cranny defending an ownership that was concerned with profits taking advantage of a loyal fan base, much like P.T. Barnum. This rebuild hasn't been going for many years or they would have improved drafting, scouting, and coaching in the minors and hired a real Major League manager.

Exactly. We have no idea if fans will or won’t “commit to a rebuild,” because the team hasn't been rebuilding, but skating by. Cardinal fans are smart. Have a plan, tell them what it is, follow through, and we’ll support it. The only plan the Cardinals had until last month was “keep John Mozeliak employed.”

[Ronnie Dobbs]

From your original post I can't figure out if we are agreeing or disagreeing. In my opinion, they were patient because attendance and profits were good. They milked the fans while the entire system (minor league) was in a shamble because they didn't invest in drafting, scouting and player development. This entire process of rebuilding should have started several years ago, just not 4 months ago.

Well, yeah, I agree. It should have started a few years ago. But you seemingly agree with the OP that a rebuild is loser mentality, so would it not have been loser mentality several years ago? But regardless of what they did not do several years ago, they're doing it now. It has to be done, right?

But I definitely disagree that they were "milking fans" for years. No organization is going to knowingly tank their organization like that. More likely it's because they have a bunch of guys who had seen success in the past doing things a certain way, and thought that they could stick with that, so they got passed by. Also, they lost a lot of talented people who got promotions at other organizations.

I believe that because we saw it at the end of the Jocketty tenure. He thought his way was the best way, created a big internal organizational rift, and the FO was proactive and pushed him out. That led to a lot of success for awhile. But eventually you have to change with the times or you'll get passed by. And we're seeing that now.

[Banner29]

From your original post I can't figure out if we are agreeing or disagreeing. In my opinion, they were patient because attendance and profits were good. They milked the fans while the entire system (minor league) was in a shamble because they didn't invest in drafting, scouting and player development. This entire process of rebuilding should have started several years ago, just not 4 months ago.

Well, yeah, I agree. It should have started a few years ago. But you seemingly agree with the OP that a rebuild is loser mentality, so would it not have been loser mentality several years ago? But regardless of what they did not do several years ago, they're doing it now. It has to be done, right?

But I definitely disagree that they were "milking fans" for years. No organization is going to knowingly tank their organization like that. More likely it's because they have a bunch of guys who had seen success in the past doing things a certain way, and thought that they could stick with that, so they got passed by. Also, they lost a lot of talented people who got promotions at other organizations.

I believe that because we saw it at the end of the Jocketty tenure. He thought his way was the best way, created a big internal organizational rift, and the FO was proactive and pushed him out. That led to a lot of success for awhile. But eventually you have to change with the times or you'll get passed by. And we're seeing that now.

The issue with your last point is they are only “changing with the times” because Mo no longer wanted his position. You said Walt’s way was what forced him out, and it got him canned. They didn’t do that with Mo, he was allowed to do whatever it was he wanted and was never once in jeopardy of losing his job. Where we are at now was allowed to happen by Dewitt. We just got fortunate that Mo wanted to walk away otherwise the downfall would just continue on.


So I mean yeah, either Dewitt was pathetically oblivious to how bad things were getting or he was just knowingly letting his organization rot. Maybe it was because Mo had something on him. Maybe it was because he was being completely arrogant with the fanbases loyalty. Who knows? But you can’t just simply sit there and say “oh we just wanted to make a change” because none of it adds up

[Melville]

Allow me to vent a little.....

When did the St. Louis Cardinals get such a loser mentality? When did it become acceptable for MLB baseball in St. Louis to look like AAA ball? When did it become okay for the Cardinals to not have any star power? When did it become okay for ownership to strip payroll down to nothing? When did the fans start accepting the idea that tanking (not even trying to compete) is okay? When did fans become in favor of collecting prospects instead of MLB players? When dod it become okay to have Oliver Marmol as a MLB manager?

Ok, I feel a little better.....maybe.

Tired of the Loser Mentality with the Cards and tired of reading the Loser Mentality nonsense I read on here.

Though the "loser mentality" originated a bit earlier, it was exposed the moment STL decided to re-unite and extend the careers of the ME3 (Wainwright/Molina/Pujols), rather than building young talent around N/A and Goldschmidt.
I was the only person to identify and explain it at the time.
Everyone said I was wrong.
Subsequent results have proven how prescient and correct I was.
It was obvious the organization did not care about winning.