(The Right) expensive veterans with lots of playoff experience seems to be the key

[2ninr]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time. This is the ST LOUIS CARDINALS - we don't need to keep playing the poor card - this forum needs to give that a rest. Invest smartly like a rich franchise and BDW will get a return. He has the money to invest if he's only willing. And doing that smartly in no way needs to slow down our investment in the minors - they are not mutually exclusive and the funds to be spent in the minors are tiny compared to what it costs to fill out a real MLB roster.

Fundamentally I agree. I just think the degree to which our current roster sucks, along with the impending labor strife, throw a wrench in that approach. It takes more than a 200 mil payroll to fix this roster for 2026. And 2027 is an unknown. But you are right that we should expect more in the future.

[Carp4Cy]

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time.

The problem is that you don't know who the "right veterans" are that you are going to need 3, 4, 5 yrs. from now.

You sign a 1B like Goldschmidt or a 3B like Arenado for 5 yrs. (maybe even giving them a NTC), then in 2 yrs. you develop potential young stars who ideally you'd have play 1B or 3B. But now you are committed to your expensive veterans, who may be declining by that point in time, when you'd rather be using that payroll on an OF or SP.

Choices made now to sign expensive veterans on multiyear contracts just to pacify a certain part of the fanbase handcuff you later.

Those were trades, not signings, though I hear you. Still - we had an ideal window in 2022 and Mo only went for 1 pitcher at the deadline and no OF upgrade, no top RPs to support Hels and Hicks and Gio who were sagging by season's end. If you are going all in, then go for it.

Meanwhile, even having Goldy and Nado on the roster didn't need to hamstring us if Mo hadn't signed dumber contracts for Mikolas, Matz etc, and completely neglected the prospect development and scouting (wth was drafting Hjerpe all about - no one here even liked it at the time???) and not brought in a (cheap) inexperienced manager instead of trying for the 2nd coming of TLR. If a manger made better pitching moves, maybe we beat the Phils in game 1 and Pujols/Goldy's bats go off in the game 3 that never happened. And the rest could have been completely different.

I'm not saying get a 36 yo 3B to replace a 34 yo NA. But if we can get a (higher paid) 30 yo OFer this offseason who can be here for say 4 years or more - that kind of move and others like it can set us up for both planned windows 2+ years in the future And possibly get us a few extra wins to get the younger part of our roster some valuable playoff experience even before that "window" is fully open, if you want to look at it that way. That's the part we are ignoring - you can't just turn it on in one year when you decide to be ready and become the 1992 fab 5 freshmen of Michigan. MLB doesn't work that way - experience counts. Playoff experience seems to count ten-fold.

[Cranny]

Realistically, if you divide the 26 roster positions up into 15 "high value" positions (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, closer, and a DH) and 11 "lower value" positions (7 other RPs and 4 other bench players), the Cardinals can afford to have:

- 4-5 "high value" positions filled by full market value expensive veterans (to the lower end if that includes a #1 SP instead of a lesser SP)
- 3-4 "lower value" positions filled by full market value veterans (even non-closer RPs making $6, $7, etc. million)

which means they need:

- 10-11 "high value" positions filled by cost controlled young players (about half pre-ARB and the other half with ARB-like salaries even if they were signed to an early long term deal)
- 7-8 "lower value" positions filled by cost controlled young players (about half pre-ARB and the other half ARB-eligible)

That's about what you could do for $180-$200 million.

But it's critical to FIRST develop most of those 17-18 cost controlled young players BEFORE you go all in on buying full market value veterans (in particular the ones in "high value" positions) so that you have a clear idea of just exactly what needs you have to fill.

Very well stated, mattmitch.

[Carp4Cy]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time. This is the ST LOUIS CARDINALS - we don't need to keep playing the poor card - this forum needs to give that a rest. Invest smartly like a rich franchise and BDW will get a return. He has the money to invest if he's only willing. And doing that smartly in no way needs to slow down our investment in the minors - they are not mutually exclusive and the funds to be spent in the minors are tiny compared to what it costs to fill out a real MLB roster.

Fundamentally I agree. I just think the degree to which our current roster sucks, along with the impending labor strife, throw a wrench in that approach. It takes more than a 200 mil payroll to fix this roster for 2026. And 2027 is an unknown. But you are right that we should expect more in the future.

I think a 200m roster invested smartly could do wonders - even less can get us there. Bloom is starting with a nearly clean slate - there are no Matz/Mikolas overhangs. Nado is a sunk cost and is getting cheaper and might be traded.

Maybe it doesn't get us to the WS in year one, but very very likely it gets us to the playoffs. We aren't the Mets after all. If we actually tried to win instead of trying to tank, I think good fortune could follow us for a bit. Add JJW (yes his window starts now) to Winn, Libby, McG, Gray, Hererra and actually build around them - 83 wins would have gotten those young guys some playoff experience and setup the roster for a more successful future playoff run.

[2ninr]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time. This is the ST LOUIS CARDINALS - we don't need to keep playing the poor card - this forum needs to give that a rest. Invest smartly like a rich franchise and BDW will get a return. He has the money to invest if he's only willing. And doing that smartly in no way needs to slow down our investment in the minors - they are not mutually exclusive and the funds to be spent in the minors are tiny compared to what it costs to fill out a real MLB roster.

Fundamentally I agree. I just think the degree to which our current roster sucks, along with the impending labor strife, throw a wrench in that approach. It takes more than a 200 mil payroll to fix this roster for 2026. And 2027 is an unknown. But you are right that we should expect more in the future.

I think a 200m roster invested smartly could do wonders - even less can get us there. Bloom is starting with a nearly clean slate - there are no Matz/Mikolas overhangs. Nado is a sunk cost and is getting cheaper and might be traded.

Maybe it doesn't get us to the WS in year one, but very very likely it gets us to the playoffs. We aren't the Mets after all. If we actually tried to win instead of trying to tank, I think good fortune could follow us for a bit. Add JJW (yes his window starts now) to Winn, Libby, McG, Gray, Hererra and actually build around them - 83 wins would have gotten those young guys some playoff experience and setup the roster for a more successful future playoff run.

I love the Cardials and will be behind them a hundred if that's what they decide to do. Throw in that guy on the driveline video (Walker hitting 117 mph drives) and just maybe -------

[ilcubuffs]

Either DimWallet has to sell the team or he has to do a 180 and let Bloom actually lead the organization without interference. Otherwise it is just white noise.

[Cardinals4Life]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

100% agree.
Having skme homegrown players is great - nothing wrong with that. But you still have to spend money on some guys to fill in the missing pieces.

We have the money to fix the Cardinals RIGHT NOW!
The lack of will to do so is maddening.

We can easily sign a TOR starter and a legit bat or 2 to decent/big contracts. Combine that with some of the complimentary pieces we have currently, then get rid of the redundancies, and call up a Wetherholt and we could easily be a WS contender. Easily.

Why it won't happen, I still don't understand.

Cardinals can carry a 180M (up to even a 200M) payroll and be competitive!!!

[Cardinals4Life]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Difference between signing a key veteran to solidify your team and getting old guys to fill key spots. Walt Jocketty used to do the former (ex Larry Walker). Johnny bow ties did the latter (Lynn, Gibson, Fedde, Miller and so on).

Correct.

[rockondlouie]

I keep seeing this but how many in this thread actually believe BDWJr will ever have a $200M major league payroll in his lifetime?

Count me as a "No Way".

[Cardinals4Life]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

That's (bleep). How do you know what signing some key FAs and some trades for next year's roster would bring? You magically know how many wins that gives us?

Nothing against developing some goos young talent, but not spending money in FA makes no sense at all.

[Cardinals4Life]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

The Cardinals are never going to sign "lots of" expensive veteran players.

They can, and will need to, sign a few, select expensive veteran players when they are again ready to "win now."

But first they need to develop the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players. Only once they have that will they know what expensive veterans (a 1B?, a SP?, an OF?, etc.) they need to sign. You have to know what your holes are before you can spend a limited amount of money effectively.

And when you sign those expensive veterans to multiyear contracts, you want to be in "win now" mode in the first 1, 2, 3 years of their deals, because they'll probably be declining towards the end of them.

In the current MLB, a team like the Cardinals is going to have to time their windows of being competitive more than they had to previsously.

It is obvious what the holes are. Go get the pieces you need.

1.) Top of Rotation Starter
2.) Offensive force for the OF
3.) Solid bat at 3B
4.) Trade for another starter

[JuanAgosto]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

That's (bleep). How do you know what signing some key FAs and some trades for next year's roster would bring? You magically know how many wins that gives us?

Nothing against developing some goos young talent, but not spending money in FA makes no sense at all.

Exactly. Developing good, young talent is a must. But you cant have a whole team comprised that way and win. It would require constant hits in drafting. Because even if you develop multiple players into stars, eventually, you have to pay them.

[mattmitchl44]

But if we can get a (higher paid) 30 yo OFer this offseason who can be here for say 4 years or more - that kind of move and others like it can set us up for both planned windows 2+ years in the future And possibly get us a few extra wins to get the younger part of our roster some valuable playoff experience even before that "window" is fully open, if you want to look at it that way.

Here's the list of OFs who have signed for 4+ yrs. in the past five offseasons:

2025 - J. Soto, age 26, 15 yrs./$765 million
2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million
2024 - J. H. Lee, age 25, 6 yrs./$113 million
2023 - A. Judge, age 31, 9 yrs./$360 million
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million
2023 - M. Yoshida, age 29, 5 yrs./$90 million
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million
2022 - S. Suzuki, age 27, 5 yrs./$85 million
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million

Assuming we're not talking about signing a Soto or Judge, or someone without MLB experience, that reduces to:

2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million - 1 yr./-0.9 fWAR
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million - 3 yrs./10 fWAR
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million - 3 yrs./-0.2 fWAR
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million - 4 yrs./0.7 fWAR
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million - 4 yrs./4.5 fWAR
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million - 4 yrs./11.3 fWAR
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million - 3 yrs./-1.4 fWAR (not in MLB in 2025)
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million - 5 yrs./14.8 fWAR
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million - 5 yrs./8.6 fWAR

How many of those contracts do you like? Only about three good contracts (Nimmo, Schwarber, Springer) out of all of them, and even Springer at $25 million AAV is iffy. Not a very good hit rate for what you are describing.

[rockondlouie]

But if we can get a (higher paid) 30 yo OFer this offseason who can be here for say 4 years or more - that kind of move and others like it can set us up for both planned windows 2+ years in the future And possibly get us a few extra wins to get the younger part of our roster some valuable playoff experience even before that "window" is fully open, if you want to look at it that way.

Here's the list of OFs who have signed for 4+ yrs. in the past five offseasons:

2025 - J. Soto, age 26, 15 yrs./$765 million
2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million
2024 - J. H. Lee, age 25, 6 yrs./$113 million
2023 - A. Judge, age 31, 9 yrs./$360 million
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million
2023 - M. Yoshida, age 29, 5 yrs./$90 million
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million
2022 - S. Suzuki, age 27, 5 yrs./$85 million
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million

Assuming we're not talking about signing a Soto or Judge, or someone without MLB experience, that reduces to:

2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million - 1 yr./-0.9 fWAR
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million - 3 yrs./10 fWAR
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million - 3 yrs./-0.2 fWAR
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million - 4 yrs./0.7 fWAR
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million - 4 yrs./4.5 fWAR
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million - 4 yrs./11.3 fWAR
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million - 3 yrs./-1.4 fWAR (not in MLB in 2025)
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million - 5 yrs./14.8 fWAR
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million - 5 yrs./8.6 fWAR

How many of those contracts do you like? Only about three good contracts (Nimmo, Schwarber, Springer) out of all of them, and even Springer at $25 million AAV is iffy. Not a very good hit rate for what you are describing.

C. Bellinger (29 HR/98 RBI/5 bWAR) would fit his description and be a huge upgrade in CF.

Unfortunately BDWJr won't spend the money nor will he (likely) sign for four years.

[mattmitchl44]

But if we can get a (higher paid) 30 yo OFer this offseason who can be here for say 4 years or more - that kind of move and others like it can set us up for both planned windows 2+ years in the future And possibly get us a few extra wins to get the younger part of our roster some valuable playoff experience even before that "window" is fully open, if you want to look at it that way.

Here's the list of OFs who have signed for 4+ yrs. in the past five offseasons:

2025 - J. Soto, age 26, 15 yrs./$765 million
2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million
2024 - J. H. Lee, age 25, 6 yrs./$113 million
2023 - A. Judge, age 31, 9 yrs./$360 million
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million
2023 - M. Yoshida, age 29, 5 yrs./$90 million
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million
2022 - S. Suzuki, age 27, 5 yrs./$85 million
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million

Assuming we're not talking about signing a Soto or Judge, or someone without MLB experience, that reduces to:

2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million - 1 yr./-0.9 fWAR
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million - 3 yrs./10 fWAR
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million - 3 yrs./-0.2 fWAR
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million - 4 yrs./0.7 fWAR
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million - 4 yrs./4.5 fWAR
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million - 4 yrs./11.3 fWAR
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million - 3 yrs./-1.4 fWAR (not in MLB in 2025)
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million - 5 yrs./14.8 fWAR
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million - 5 yrs./8.6 fWAR

How many of those contracts do you like? Only about three good contracts (Nimmo, Schwarber, Springer) out of all of them, and even Springer at $25 million AAV is iffy. Not a very good hit rate for what you are describing.

C. Bellinger (29 HR/98 RBI/5 bWAR) would fit his description and be a huge upgrade in CF.

Unfortunately BDWJr won't spend the money nor will he (likely) sign for four years.

Even if you add Bellinger, the chance of you getting a player with that profile who is going to be even decent over the course of the contract is less than 50-50.

[Carp4Cy]

But if we can get a (higher paid) 30 yo OFer this offseason who can be here for say 4 years or more - that kind of move and others like it can set us up for both planned windows 2+ years in the future And possibly get us a few extra wins to get the younger part of our roster some valuable playoff experience even before that "window" is fully open, if you want to look at it that way.

Here's the list of OFs who have signed for 4+ yrs. in the past five offseasons:

2025 - J. Soto, age 26, 15 yrs./$765 million
2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million
2024 - J. H. Lee, age 25, 6 yrs./$113 million
2023 - A. Judge, age 31, 9 yrs./$360 million
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million
2023 - M. Yoshida, age 29, 5 yrs./$90 million
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million
2022 - S. Suzuki, age 27, 5 yrs./$85 million
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million

Assuming we're not talking about signing a Soto or Judge, or someone without MLB experience, that reduces to:

2025 - A. Santander, age 30, 5 yrs./$92.5 million - 1 yr./-0.9 fWAR
2023 - B. Nimmo, age 30, 8 yrs./$162 million - 3 yrs./10 fWAR
2023 - A. Benintendi, age 28, 5 yrs./$75 million - 3 yrs./-0.2 fWAR
2022 - K. Bryant, age 30, 7 yrs./$182 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - N. Castellanos, age 30, 5 yrs./$100 million - 4 yrs./0.7 fWAR
2022 - S. Marte, age 33, 4 yrs./$78 million - 4 yrs./4.5 fWAR
2022 - C. Taylor, age 31, 4 yrs./$60 million - 4 yrs./-1.9 fWAR
2022 - K. Schwarber, age 29, 4 yrs./$79 million - 4 yrs./11.3 fWAR
2022 - A. Garcia, age 31, 4 yrs./$53 million - 3 yrs./-1.4 fWAR (not in MLB in 2025)
2021 - G. Springer, age 31, 6 yrs./$150 million - 5 yrs./14.8 fWAR
2021 - M. Ozuna, age 30, 5 yrs./$80 million - 5 yrs./8.6 fWAR

How many of those contracts do you like? Only about three good contracts (Nimmo, Schwarber, Springer) out of all of them, and even Springer at $25 million AAV is iffy. Not a very good hit rate for what you are describing.

Doesn't have to be a FA. It can also include a trade. I've said repeatedly that trading Donovan for a proven OF would get us a lot more value than trying to dump him for a random prospect.

Or trade some of our horde of prospects for a salaried OF who's team doesn't want to keep paying them. The Pirates have at least 2 who are poised for a bounceback with a change in scenery. A's and Marlins and several other teams should have some candidates as well. Also, some of these players (Ozuna) can give you more value (power/RBIs/Damage which the Cards need) than WAR alone gives them credit for, though he's maybe not really an OFer, which is also why his WAR is lowish.

Also you don't have listed Teoscar Hernández, who is a prime example of that playoff experience we need. Buxton has been good too, though he doesn't have as much playoff experience due to playing for bad teams. Tho it is more than our OF has.