(The Right) expensive veterans with lots of playoff experience seems to be the key

[Carp4Cy]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Don’t put words in my mouth. The Dodgers have proven you can both have a good farm system and spend hundreds of millions on successful, free agents and trades for veterans and extending your own success stories. Our owner can spend a lot more if he chooses to and that right there is the answer. Have a good farm system and be willing to spend a lot more money year in and year outbecause we can (bleep) well afford it.

The crime is going cheap and using the focus on the farm as an excuse to not do more because you pretend like you can’t do both at the same time.

Even trading enough to get to 83 wins and getting three games of experience in the playoffs would put us in a better position for the future than selling off any experienced veterans we do have in July for more unexperienced prospects.

[CorneliusWolfe]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

So the only alternative to the old broke down or underperforming players you keep throwing out there is become the Rays? Got it. There’s nothing in between. No balance.

By the way, since you like telling me how I feel…does not being a front office (donkey) kisser and prospect geek who buys all the hype make me so “outraged”?

Will I heal from your diagnosis if I start agreeing with you? Please let me know what I should do, I just want to get better.

[CorneliusWolfe]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Difference between signing a key veteran to solidify your team and getting old guys to fill key spots. Walt Jocketty used to do the former (ex Larry Walker). Johnny bow ties did the latter (Lynn, Gibson, Fedde, Miller and so on).

You just want them to re-sign Fedde and Mikolas!! And you don’t want them to rebuild the farm!!

No worries Ozzie! I went ahead and crammed your words into his mouth to save you some time!

[CorneliusWolfe]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Don’t put words in my mouth. The Dodgers have proven you can both have a good farm system and spend hundreds of millions on successful, free agents and trades for veterans and extending your own success stories. Our owner can spend a lot more if he chooses to and that right there is the answer. Have a good farm system and be willing to spend a lot more money year in and year outbecause we can (bleep) well afford it.

The crime is going cheap and using the focus on the farm as an excuse to not do more because you pretend like you can’t do both at the same time.

Even trading enough to get to 83 wins and getting three games of experience in the playoffs would put us in a better position for the future than selling off any experienced veterans we do have in July for more unexperienced prospects.

There seems to be a pattern here.

[2ninr]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

[sikeston bulldog2]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

Nice response. But…with that money increase, you must buy individual players. Who? Where is the pool of eligible players at that price who are tradable, or bought.

That’s my issue, your plan is solid, but when it comes time to shop, the shelves are bare.

[mattmitchl44]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

The Cardinals are never going to sign "lots of" expensive veteran players.

They can, and will need to, sign a few, select expensive veteran players when they are again ready to "win now."

But first they need to develop the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players. Only once they have that will they know what expensive veterans (a 1B?, a SP?, an OF?, etc.) they need to sign. You have to know what your holes are before you can spend a limited amount of money effectively.

And when you sign those expensive veterans to multiyear contracts, you want to be in "win now" mode in the first 1, 2, 3 years of their deals, because they'll probably be declining towards the end of them.

In the current MLB, a team like the Cardinals is going to have to time their windows of being competitive more than they had to previsously.

[ecleme22]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

This OP can be copy/pasted after every Dodgers win.

Also, if the Brewers win tonight, we can write one about how great defense and pitching always trumps an expensive, bloated rosters.

[rockondlouie]

NO TEAM can ever build a WS winner completely from within.

The best you can hope for is to internally develop three-four-five solid position players, a couple mid-high level starting pitchers, a capable bench and some strong bullpen arms.

Then it's up to ownership to give the POBO/GM the money he needs to supplement the roster w/the right players (acquired either via trades or thru FA) to fill slots that can't be filled from within the organization.

Let's hope BDWJr opens the wallet after 2026 (and the new CBA) and allows C. Bloom to go shopping (and NOT at KMart where he sent Mo but to Tiffany's!).

[mattmitchl44]

Realistically, if you divide the 26 roster positions up into 15 "high value" positions (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, closer, and a DH) and 11 "lower value" positions (7 other RPs and 4 other bench players), the Cardinals can afford to have:

- 4-5 "high value" positions filled by full market value expensive veterans (to the lower end if that includes a #1 SP instead of a lesser SP)
- 3-4 "lower value" positions filled by full market value veterans (even non-closer RPs making $6, $7, etc. million)

which means they need:

- 10-11 "high value" positions filled by cost controlled young players (about half pre-ARB and the other half with ARB-like salaries even if they were signed to an early long term deal)
- 7-8 "lower value" positions filled by cost controlled young players (about half pre-ARB and the other half ARB-eligible)

That's about what you could do for $180-$200 million.

But it's critical to FIRST develop most of those 17-18 cost controlled young players BEFORE you go all in on buying full market value veterans (in particular the ones in "high value" positions) so that you have a clear idea of just exactly what needs you have to fill.

[2ninr]

NO TEAM can ever build a WS winner completely from within.

The best you can hope for is to internally develop three-four-five solid position players, a couple mid-high level starting pitchers, a capable bench and some strong bullpen arms.

Then it's up to ownership to give the POBO/GM the money he needs to supplement the roster w/the right players (acquired either via trades or thru FA) to fill slots that can't be filled from within the organization.

Let's hope BDWJr opens the wallet after 2026 (and the new CBA) and allows C. Bloom to go shopping (and NOT at KMart where he sent Mo but to Tiffany's!).

I agree with everything you said. I do want to point out one thing. Mo earned his place in line at WalMart by wasting Bills $ on bad extensions and signings. He did Mo a solid by not just firing him.

[Carp4Cy]

to winning in October. And lots of them.

Snell has always been pretty good in the playoffs, but now he's dominating, and going deep into games. He's won 5 straight playoff starts.

And Freddie Freeman, who had the GWRBI HR tonight - was playing in his 69th career playoff game.

When if ever, will our cheap homegrown roster have that kind of playoff experience?

They won’t. It will take them 2-3 years of development to be good enough to even make the playoffs, then a few years of taking their lumps as they gain playoff experience, then it will be time to trade them for…more great prospects!

And the hyperventilating prospect geek fraternity will fall in love with the “next big thing” kids and celebrate BDW being able to save so much money. They love that [shirt] more than winning the WS. TLR and Whitey realized kids don’t win championships.

Even if the team hits big on a handful of their picks, they’ll still need to supplement with good free agents or they’re going nowhere for the rest of this decade. They need to get their [shirt] together on international scouting too.

Well it certainly beats trying to build a team with guys like miles mikolas and Eric fedde and old pitchers like lance lynn and Kyle Gibson

Who said we should sign those guys? Never should’ve in the first place. The new alternative isn’t much better though…perpetually hoping in kids that are just happy to be in the bigs. The new Rays.

Well what is your solution you’re apparently against them fixing the development system and prefer them producing guys like Carlson and Gorman and guys that suck they can’t spend like the dodgers anyone that thinks they can are delusional so what’s your grand plan?

Why do you keep bringing up the [shirt]ty prospects they obviously missed on? You’re just reinforcing my point. And way to put words in my mouth about being “against fixing the development system”.

I’ve consistently said the team needs to build a foundation through the draft, but when they miss, as the Cardinals do so often, the price is occasional (over)payment in free agency to field a good product. A good foundation alone will not win a championship.

They don’t need Dodger money to pick up some quality free agents. They (drat) sure don’t have anyone internal worth extending. If Bloom is given what Mo had, a 190-220 million payroll they can and should add some quality. But they won’t, so rest easy, BDW will save plenty of money and you’ll have plenty of kids to cheer for. During the regular season anyway.

lol it will bear rooting for old arenado and fedde and mikolas. I don’t know why you’re so upset I’m not the one who decided to fix the broken development system I just agree with it I guess you want me to be as outraged as you are but I’m not

The guy's wanting to spend on this team arent looking at the big picture. Going back to a 200 mil payroll doesn't transform this roster into a contender. 80-83 wins is what it buys. And we know they aren't going to 300. If 27 doesn't happen and in 28 those guys are gone anyway you are back in the shape you are now. Bite the bullet and fix the mess so that 200 mil spent strategically actually buys you a contending team.

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time. This is the ST LOUIS CARDINALS - we don't need to keep playing the poor card - this forum needs to give that a rest. Invest smartly like a rich franchise and BDW will get a return. He has the money to invest if he's only willing. And doing that smartly in no way needs to slow down our investment in the minors - they are not mutually exclusive and the funds to be spent in the minors are tiny compared to what it costs to fill out a real MLB roster.

[Carp4Cy]

In the current MLB, a team like the Cardinals is going to have to time their windows of being competitive more than they had to previsously.

This is the part I refuse to believe. Act poor and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. BDW doesn't need to save all this money - he just needs to invest it smarter, year in and year out, but he still needs to invest in the brand at ALL levels. Otherwise you kill the brand and become the Pirates and that magic "window" will never arrive.

What good is a short window of supposed talent if it loses out to older veterans who actually have 10x the playoff experience because we repeatedly sold off in July instead of trying to get 3-7 games of playoff experience for the good of the roster's future each year?

[mattmitchl44]

We should be able to fix the minors and scouting AND invest in the right veterans and maintain a higher payroll to support much better fan attendance at the same time.

The problem is that you don't know who the "right veterans" are that you are going to need 3, 4, 5 yrs. from now.

You sign a 1B like Goldschmidt or a 3B like Arenado for 5 yrs. (maybe even giving them a NTC), then in 2 yrs. you develop potential young stars who ideally you'd have play 1B or 3B. But now you are committed to your expensive veterans, who may be declining by that point in time, when you'd rather be using that payroll on an OF or SP.

Choices made now to sign expensive veterans on multiyear contracts just to pacify a certain part of the fanbase handcuff you later.

[rockondlouie]

NO TEAM can ever build a WS winner completely from within.

The best you can hope for is to internally develop three-four-five solid position players, a couple mid-high level starting pitchers, a capable bench and some strong bullpen arms.

Then it's up to ownership to give the POBO/GM the money he needs to supplement the roster w/the right players (acquired either via trades or thru FA) to fill slots that can't be filled from within the organization.

Let's hope BDWJr opens the wallet after 2026 (and the new CBA) and allows C. Bloom to go shopping (and NOT at KMart where he sent Mo but to Tiffany's!).

I agree with everything you said. I do want to point out one thing. Mo earned his place in line at WalMart by wasting Bills $ on bad extensions and signings. He did Mo a solid by not just firing him.

Thx 2ninr

I once added up the money a few years ago Mo wasted on horrible FA signings and extensions, came to well over $500,000,000.

[mattmitchl44]

In the current MLB, a team like the Cardinals is going to have to time their windows of being competitive more than they had to previsously.

This is the part I refuse to believe. Act poor and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. BDW doesn't need to save all this money - he just needs to invest it smarter, year in and year out, but he still needs to invest in the brand at ALL levels. Otherwise you kill the brand and become the Pirates and that magic "window" will never arrive.

What good is a short window of supposed talent if it loses out to older veterans who actually have 10x the playoff experience because we repeatedly sold off in July instead of trying to get 3-7 games of playoff experience for the good of the roster's future each year?

You can refuse to believe whatever you want.

The reality is that has FA salaries have climbed, it was first the smallest payroll teams (Miami, Kansas City, etc.) that had to try to "peak and trough" - be competitive for a few years, then back off and regroup. But now the necessity of that has worked its way up into the mid payroll teams (like the Cardinals).

Now the small payroll teams might only be able to "peak" for 1-2 years and then "trough" for 5 years and repeat that cycle, whereas the mid payroll teams might be able to "peak" for 4-5 years and then "trough" for just 2-3 to rebuild.