For the Matheny haters

[ecleme22]

Still waiting on all those “numerous examples” that you immediately clammed up about. Wonder why.

Your second comment there is pretty (drat) funny, TBH. Why even debate when everyone is completely blinded by their own opinions?!

I honestly would’ve spit out my lunch laughing at that if I wasn’t already finished.

I’m still ready to be opened minded about all those examples you ambiguously referenced but now refuse to provide.

I gave you six manager names, bud.

You’ve willfully chosen to ignore the full question… I asked for context, results, examples, anything. Like teams, years, records… some sort of anecdotal evidence of what you’re suggesting.

To this point, you’ve chosen to not answer.

One can only surmise that you don’t have data to back up your assertions, so you instead choose to pretend that you’re provided enough info, and it’s everyone else’s job to figure out what the hell you’re referring to.

I’ve asked you kindly a few times now for background, as I’ve been genuinely curious. It’s weird that you’ve declined the opportunity to lean in and engage on that.

I gave you six names.

You can look them up and realize that teams improving under a new manager isn’t a myth. Lol

[JohnnyMO]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

[Ozziesfan41]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

I heard Matheny talk at a dinner while he was still the manager of the Cardinals. He said the hardest thing he was struggling with was when analytics said to do one thing, and all of his experience in baseball said to do another.

And analytics probably told him not to continue to start a guy mired in a horrendous slump and isn’t good in the field but he ignored it. He also said when he went to the royals he worked on his people skills as well as embracing the analytics so even he had problems he had to address and work on. But I’m sure the ones passionately defending him are right and Matheny himself was wrong

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

[rbirules]

not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

I’ve seen this said several times, so this isn’t a shot at you but just the general sentiment.

I’m not saying he WOULD have a job, but the near fatal brain hemorrhage he suffered in early 2024 that put him in the hospital for weeks has likely had a significant impact on how he’s chosen to spend his time.

He’s a good baseball man with decades of experience, and those guys usually find roles in the game if they want them.

Fair point.

[An Old Friend]

Still waiting on all those “numerous examples” that you immediately clammed up about. Wonder why.

Your second comment there is pretty (drat) funny, TBH. Why even debate when everyone is completely blinded by their own opinions?!

I honestly would’ve spit out my lunch laughing at that if I wasn’t already finished.

I’m still ready to be opened minded about all those examples you ambiguously referenced but now refuse to provide.

I gave you six manager names, bud.

You’ve willfully chosen to ignore the full question… I asked for context, results, examples, anything. Like teams, years, records… some sort of anecdotal evidence of what you’re suggesting.

To this point, you’ve chosen to not answer.

One can only surmise that you don’t have data to back up your assertions, so you instead choose to pretend that you’re provided enough info, and it’s everyone else’s job to figure out what the hell you’re referring to.

I’ve asked you kindly a few times now for background, as I’ve been genuinely curious. It’s weird that you’ve declined the opportunity to lean in and engage on that.

I gave you six names.

You can look them up and realize that teams improving under a new manager isn’t a myth. Lol

Last chance - you can provide the context.

If you choose not to, we’ll agree that you don’t have any data to support your position.

I’m not going on some wild goose chase to find whatever nebulous information you’re ambiguously referring to. That isn’t how debates work.

At this point, you’re just being an assssshole about it. Any normal person would provide the context as originally requested.

[rbirules]

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

I heard Matheny talk at a dinner while he was still the manager of the Cardinals. He said the hardest thing he was struggling with was when analytics said to do one thing, and all of his experience in baseball said to do another.

Ironically one of the reasons I was cautiously optimistic about the Matheny hiring was that he wasn't already an MLB coach or manager stuck in the "old ways of doing things" strategy. Plus he played an important position under a great analytics manager in TLR (and DD), who was always trying to find an edge. I thought he'd be receptive to new information and strategies that could give him an advantage. That clearly wasn't the case, in fact he was much more old school than TLR (set bullpen roles, instead of playing matchups; tons of sac bunts; and my favorite double switching a MOTO bat, usually Holliday, out of close games and then having a defensive replacement in the MOTO even later in close games when the bullpen wasn't perfect).

[Cranny]

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

I heard Matheny talk at a dinner while he was still the manager of the Cardinals. He said the hardest thing he was struggling with was when analytics said to do one thing, and all of his experience in baseball said to do another.

Ironically one of the reasons I was cautiously optimistic about the Matheny hiring was that he wasn't already an MLB coach or manager stuck in the "old ways of doing things" strategy. Plus he played an important position under a great analytics manager in TLR (and DD), who was always trying to find an edge. I thought he'd be receptive to new information and strategies that could give him an advantage. That clearly wasn't the case, in fact he was much more old school than TLR (set bullpen roles, instead of playing matchups; tons of sac bunts; and my favorite double switching a MOTO bat, usually Holliday, out of close games and then having a defensive replacement in the MOTO even later in close games when the bullpen wasn't perfect).

Maybe he had more playing experience than some managers, which made it tougher to balance analytics info with common sense coming from that experience. That being said - RBI you seem like you may have some coaching or managerial experience. Was it at the high school, college, or professional level?

[An Old Friend]

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

I heard Matheny talk at a dinner while he was still the manager of the Cardinals. He said the hardest thing he was struggling with was when analytics said to do one thing, and all of his experience in baseball said to do another.

Ironically one of the reasons I was cautiously optimistic about the Matheny hiring was that he wasn't already an MLB coach or manager stuck in the "old ways of doing things" strategy. Plus he played an important position under a great analytics manager in TLR (and DD), who was always trying to find an edge. I thought he'd be receptive to new information and strategies that could give him an advantage. That clearly wasn't the case, in fact he was much more old school than TLR (set bullpen roles, instead of playing matchups; tons of sac bunts; and my favorite double switching a MOTO bat, usually Holliday, out of close games and then having a defensive replacement in the MOTO even later in close games when the bullpen wasn't perfect).

I’m not convinced that he was getting great analytical data or strategic direction from the front office on how to utilize it considering how far behind the Cardinals have been shown to be in analytics and player development.

Who was telling him to go by the analytics? Mozeliak? A man who doesn’t understand advanced analytics? That’s the blind leading the blind in a sense.

Matheny wasn’t in a position to be a leader in advanced analytics because the organization that he worked for was a laggard.

[Bad14]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

This really did make me laugh out loud. You know people who are friends with him. They said positive things about their friend. Therefore, he must be an effective manager.

[JohnnyMO]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

This really did make me laugh out loud. You know people who are friends with him. They said positive things about their friend. Therefore, he must be an effective manager.

Exactly. It’s amazing how blind Cranny can be to logic. No one can judge a manager unless they’ve managed. Or they’ve met them or their friends, apparently.

[stlbirdlover]

Cards would have won 2013 World Series if Matheny would have pitched around Ortiz!

[Ozziesfan41]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

This really did make me laugh out loud. You know people who are friends with him. They said positive things about their friend. Therefore, he must be an effective manager.

Exactly. It’s amazing how blind Cranny can be to logic. No one can judge a manager unless they’ve managed. Or they’ve met them or their friends, apparently.

What are your qualifications, JohnnyMO. Interested to hear them.

[ecleme22]

And who can forget MM bringing in Michael Wacha in 2014 post season against the giants when he hadn’t pitched well since coming off the IL with 5.40 ERA hadn’t pitched in a month or in relief and he brings him in to face lefties. Then after the game admits “I put him him in a bad spot” no kidding genius the announcers and the fans knew it was a bad idea as soon as he did it and the national media criticized it. As soon as wacha was coming in I said well Matheny just gave the game away

And Rosie and CMart were available...


Matheny was a perfect storm of little experience + early success (caused primarily by a turnkey situation). This can lead one to believe that they have all the answers. Or, their way of managing worked, so why change it??? So hubris set in.

Then, when the roster became not so turnkey, MM became exposed.

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I thought you didn’t have the experience to have any opinions?

I've met him, and know others who are good friends of his. They've given me an idea of what kind of person he is, and
the human qualities he has which may lead to being effective in the areas I mentioned.

This really did make me laugh out loud. You know people who are friends with him. They said positive things about their friend. Therefore, he must be an effective manager.

Exactly. It’s amazing how blind Cranny can be to logic. No one can judge a manager unless they’ve managed. Or they’ve met them or their friends, apparently.

Logic, JohhnyMO? Your logic? "Everyone's Logic"? LOL. And who says that you have every fact behind every decision? Do you know who wasn't feeling well? Do you know who had an injury, which wasn't common knowledge? Do you know what the analytics said? Where have you managed that gives you such insight and "logic"?