For the Matheny haters

[Ozziesfan41]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

Moss also hit .191 .248 .639 the second half

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

[An Old Friend]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

[Ozziesfan41]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him I’m sure you know more than 30 teams who don’t want him to manage for them two of which fired him

[An Old Friend]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

[Ozziesfan41]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

[Cranny]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

I heard Matheny talk at a dinner while he was still the manager of the Cardinals. He said the hardest thing he was struggling with was when analytics said to do one thing, and all of his experience in baseball said to do another.

[rbirules]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I mean your first post in this thread you said "Mike did very well with the talent he had . . ."

Sure it's not a direct quote of somebody (you) calling him great, you sidestepped that, but it's praise nonetheless.

You then did your normal song and dance about making excuses for players he had, and then trotting out his winning %, and saying that's all that matters (until he went elsewhere and it was awful).

Then you say you can't comment on a manager because you don't know enough about it but now are saying there's a lot of stuff managers do that we don't see but you feel good enough to "guess that Matheny was very good at some of those things".

Every coach in every sport, at almost any level has to deal with those things, and/or have coaches on their staff to help with those things. That's the bare minimum to even be considered as a coach.

At the highest levels of sports winning is very important and as a baseball manager that means making good tactical decisions to put your team in the best position to succeed. Matheny was not good at that. No, I haven't watched other teams enough to rank every manager in MLB. But I watched the Cardinals incredibly close for multiple decades now. Since DeWitt became owner, IMO, Matheny is the worst tactician the Cardinals have had as a manager, worse than even Oli. I've seen other managers a lot if they managed a division rival or if they went deep into the post-season (Francona was amazing in 2016 playoffs, like TLR in 2011). I believe there was an article 10 or so years ago that tried to quantify certain aspects of a manager's in game decisions and Matheny ranked near the bottom.

Loved Matheny as a player and always thought he'd make a good pitching coach. I was cautiously optimistic about him being hired as a manager, but that feeling quickly vanished as it was clear almost instantly he wasn't a good in game decision maker. He required a set roster and well defined bullpen roles that he could fall back on (why even have a manager if you need everything pre-determined?).

Anyway, as another poster said, this season must be pretty uninteresting for fans if we're relitigating discussions about a manager that was fired almost a decade ago (hired by another team, fired, and not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

[An Old Friend]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Still waiting on all those “numerous examples” that you immediately clammed up about. Wonder why.

Your second comment there is pretty (bleep) funny, TBH. Why even debate when everyone is completely blinded by their own opinions?!

I honestly would’ve spit out my lunch laughing at that if I wasn’t already finished.

I’m still ready to be opened minded about all those examples you ambiguously referenced but now refuse to provide.

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Matheny even stated when he went to the royals said he worked on his people skills and embraced analytics which is part of the reason for his firing in St. Louis but people want to ignore that and pretend his was great

Look up Pham's 2015 Sept game logs. He had the highest OPS on the team for the month, yet was benched twice by Matheny. I remember messaging Rick Hummel being like, "uh, why is Bourjos getting starts over the hot Pham?" I remmber Hummel thinking it weird too.

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

56% of Pham’s plate appearances in August were a walk or strikeout.

In September moss had just 6 more hits in 73 more plate appearances than Pham the blind man Pham had 3 hits in 18 at bats moss had just 9 in 91 lol the blind man hit .167 with .211 OBP moss hit .099 with a .178 OBP. Yes moss was outhit by a blind man according to you and MM kept starting a guy who even a blind man outhit now if that’s not dumb I don’t know what you call it. If not Pham you would think he would start anyone over the guy who even a blind man outhit. But hey MM is so awesome 30 teams don’t want him managing for him

I didn’t say anything about Pham’s vision but it looks like you’re acknowledging that he was indeed having a lot of trouble putting the ball in play. Compound that with him being a huge assssshole, it’s understandable why his playing time may have been limited.

Regardless, it’s always been my contention that the hostility towards Matheny was misguided and should have been towards Mozeliak. I said it back then and it’s as true then as it is now… it’s just that more people have finally seen the light.

No, it's actually not understandable why a guy who had an .843 OPS in August, would get almost no PT in September in favor of a guy who went 9 for 91 with a .387 OPS.

Now, obviously you think, overall, the 'hostility towards Matheny is misguided,' so your debating is blinded by that.

But there's no logical understanding of starting Moss 26 games in Sept/Oct and allowing him to finish 25 of them.

Still waiting on all those “numerous examples” that you immediately clammed up about. Wonder why.

Your second comment there is pretty (drat) funny, TBH. Why even debate when everyone is completely blinded by their own opinions?!

I honestly would’ve spit out my lunch laughing at that if I wasn’t already finished.

I’m still ready to be opened minded about all those examples you ambiguously referenced but now refuse to provide.

I gave you six manager names, bud.

[An Old Friend]

not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

I’ve seen this said several times, so this isn’t a shot at you but just the general sentiment.

I’m not saying he WOULD have a job, but the near fatal brain hemorrhage he suffered in early 2024 that put him in the hospital for weeks has likely had a significant impact on how he’s chosen to spend his time.

He’s a good baseball man with decades of experience, and those guys usually find roles in the game if they want them.

[Cranny]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I mean your first post in this thread you said "Mike did very well with the talent he had . . ."

Sure it's not a direct quote of somebody (you) calling him great, you sidestepped that, but it's praise nonetheless.

You then did your normal song and dance about making excuses for players he had, and then trotting out his winning %, and saying that's all that matters (until he went elsewhere and it was awful).

Then you say you can't comment on a manager because you don't know enough about it but now are saying there's a lot of stuff managers do that we don't see but you feel good enough to "guess that Matheny was very good at some of those things".

Every coach in every sport, at almost any level has to deal with those things, and/or have coaches on their staff to help with those things. That's the bare minimum to even be considered as a coach.

At the highest levels of sports winning is very important and as a baseball manager that means making good tactical decisions to put your team in the best position to succeed. Matheny was not good at that. No, I haven't watched other teams enough to rank every manager in MLB. But I watched the Cardinals incredibly close for multiple decades now. Since DeWitt became owner, IMO, Matheny is the worst tactician the Cardinals have had as a manager, worse than even Oli. I've seen other managers a lot if they managed a division rival or if they went deep into the post-season (Francona was amazing in 2016 playoffs, like TLR in 2011). I believe there was an article 10 or so years ago that tried to quantify certain aspects of a manager's in game decisions and Matheny ranked near the bottom.

Loved Matheny as a player and always thought he'd make a good pitching coach. I was cautiously optimistic about him being hired as a manager, but that feeling quickly vanished as it was clear almost instantly he wasn't a good in game decision maker. He required a set roster and well defined bullpen roles that he could fall back on (why even have a manager if you need everything pre-determined?).

Anyway, as another poster said, this season must be pretty uninteresting for fans if we're relitigating discussions about a manager that was fired almost a decade ago (hired by another team, fired, and not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

What got Matheny fired may have been that he went with his experience too much and didn't follow what the analytics analysts said to do. What got Shildt fired may have been somewhat the same thing, along with demands for Mo to make certain player moves. I agree with you that Matheny would have been a pretty good pitching coach.

[ecleme22]

Was Matheny a great manager? No one has said that. But there's a lot more to managing than just setting a lineup and
managing a bullpen. There's handling each player individually when they're on a high - and on a low during a slump. There's knowing when a player is hurt and not admitting it, because they don't want to be taken out of the lineup. There's dealing with a player who's going through personal issues and it's affecting his play. Having empathy and helping him through those personal issues. My guess is that Matheny was very good at some of those things. Having been a player of note and having experienced some of those things himself might have been helpful.

I mean your first post in this thread you said "Mike did very well with the talent he had . . ."

Sure it's not a direct quote of somebody (you) calling him great, you sidestepped that, but it's praise nonetheless.

You then did your normal song and dance about making excuses for players he had, and then trotting out his winning %, and saying that's all that matters (until he went elsewhere and it was awful).

Then you say you can't comment on a manager because you don't know enough about it but now are saying there's a lot of stuff managers do that we don't see but you feel good enough to "guess that Matheny was very good at some of those things".

Every coach in every sport, at almost any level has to deal with those things, and/or have coaches on their staff to help with those things. That's the bare minimum to even be considered as a coach.

At the highest levels of sports winning is very important and as a baseball manager that means making good tactical decisions to put your team in the best position to succeed. Matheny was not good at that. No, I haven't watched other teams enough to rank every manager in MLB. But I watched the Cardinals incredibly close for multiple decades now. Since DeWitt became owner, IMO, Matheny is the worst tactician the Cardinals have had as a manager, worse than even Oli. I've seen other managers a lot if they managed a division rival or if they went deep into the post-season (Francona was amazing in 2016 playoffs, like TLR in 2011). I believe there was an article 10 or so years ago that tried to quantify certain aspects of a manager's in game decisions and Matheny ranked near the bottom.

Loved Matheny as a player and always thought he'd make a good pitching coach. I was cautiously optimistic about him being hired as a manager, but that feeling quickly vanished as it was clear almost instantly he wasn't a good in game decision maker. He required a set roster and well defined bullpen roles that he could fall back on (why even have a manager if you need everything pre-determined?).

Anyway, as another poster said, this season must be pretty uninteresting for fans if we're relitigating discussions about a manager that was fired almost a decade ago (hired by another team, fired, and not hired by any of the other 28 teams that should be experts on MLB managers).

What got Matheny fired may have been that he went with his experience too much and didn't follow what the analytics analysts said to do. What got Shildt fired may have been somewhat the same thing, along with demands for Mo to make certain player moves. I agree with you that Matheny would have been a pretty good pitching coach.

No, what got Shildt fired was insubordination regarding acquiring more roster talent.

[An Old Friend]

Still waiting on all those “numerous examples” that you immediately clammed up about. Wonder why.

Your second comment there is pretty (drat) funny, TBH. Why even debate when everyone is completely blinded by their own opinions?!

I honestly would’ve spit out my lunch laughing at that if I wasn’t already finished.

I’m still ready to be opened minded about all those examples you ambiguously referenced but now refuse to provide.

I gave you six manager names, bud.

You’ve willfully chosen to ignore the full question… I asked for context, results, examples, anything. Like teams, years, records… some sort of anecdotal evidence of what you’re suggesting.

To this point, you’ve chosen to not answer.

One can only surmise that you don’t have data to back up your assertions, so you instead choose to pretend that you’re provided enough info, and it’s everyone else’s job to figure out what the hell you’re referring to.

I’ve asked you kindly a few times now for background, as I’ve been genuinely curious. It’s weird that you’ve declined the opportunity to lean in and engage on that.