For the Matheny haters

[ecleme22]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

[rbirules]

So...you can’t criticize a manager if you've never been a manager...but you can be a Mo-ran (donkey) kisser even if you haven't been a POBO!. I think I understand how some people are full of [shirt]!

Pretty much.

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

[rockondlouie]

So...you can’t criticize a manager if you've never been a manager...but you can be a Mo-ran (donkey) kisser even if you haven't been a POBO!. I think I understand how some people are full of [shirt]!

Pretty much.

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

Nailed it ribs!

[Lloyd Braun]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

Kinda hard to do anything when you can't see.

And when you can't hit, it's hard to bring in a player in a close game for defensive purposes when he might end up having to bat too. And if he is batting, it's likely a late, key situation, and the last player you'd want up there is a blind player striking out at the highest rate in baseball

[ecleme22]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

Kinda hard to do anything when you can't see.

And when you can't hit, it's hard to bring in a player in a close game for defensive purposes when he might end up having to bat too. And if he is batting, it's likely a late, key situation, and the last player you'd want up there is a blind player striking out at the highest rate in baseball

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

[Lloyd Braun]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

[jackclark57]

This is spot on.

I was screaming from the roof during the Matheny exit stage that the root problem was Mo, not MM. Was he a good strategic manager -- no. But he did a lot with flawed rosters.

At one point, Mo had basically ZERO competent left-handed bats in the whole system.

Mo has been a train wreck for at least 10 years.

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez

The reality is that 2012 was the only legit roster that was well built, and we made it to game 7 of the NLCS. Pretty good. The 2012 playoff team did not have Pujols, Berkman or Furcal, and had an injured 5 inning pitcher in Carpenter, since he missed 99% of the regular season. Still a very good roster... not even close to the 2011 roster that barely got in and then needed miracle after miracle to stay alive and win.

The 2013 roster was basically a rebuild that Matheny way overachieved with. No Carp, Pujols, Berkman, Furcal... Motte had TJ and Lohse walked as a Free Agent. Not a single player of notoriety was brought in that offseason to replace any of the stars we had lost over the last two years. Kozma was our freaking starting SS the entire year, because Mo didn't think an upgrade was necessary. We basically played every night with 7 hitters and 2 pitchers batting.

Instead, Matheny was asked to win with an almost all rookie pitching staff that set a major league record for most starts, innings and pitches by rookie pitchers in the entire history of baseball. Shelby Miller, Wacha, Lyons, Gast. Nearly our entire backend of the BP was rookies: Rosie, Siegrist, Maness and Carlos Martinez.

In 2013, rookie pitchers accumulated 641 innings and 20 rookies!!!!!!!!!! appeared in games, having to contribute nearly half of our 97 victories.

This doesn't include Joe Kelly or Lance Lynn who were rookies in 2012 but contributed an additional 324 innings... meaning rookies and 2nd year pitchers were responsible for 1000 innings pitched in 2013.

All Matheny did was win 97 games, the Pennant and last till game 6 of the World Series, all while morons from the BFIB swore up and down he was the worst manager in the history of baseball.

[Ozziesfan41]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

Kinda hard to do anything when you can't see.

And when you can't hit, it's hard to bring in a player in a close game for defensive purposes when he might end up having to bat too. And if he is batting, it's likely a late, key situation, and the last player you'd want up there is a blind player striking out at the highest rate in baseball

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

And a .404 OBP if that’s what he does when he’s blind wow

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

That’s cool!

And if my argument were Pham should’ve received all the starts in September, you would have a point.

But of course that’s not what I’m saying.

Reminder: Moss had a .387 ops over 26 starts (25 CG) and 101 PA in September.

[ecleme22]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

Kinda hard to do anything when you can't see.

And when you can't hit, it's hard to bring in a player in a close game for defensive purposes when he might end up having to bat too. And if he is batting, it's likely a late, key situation, and the last player you'd want up there is a blind player striking out at the highest rate in baseball

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

And a .404 OBP if that’s what he does when he’s blind wow

Yep.

And, just my opinion, if Pham’s OPS was even .732 (100 points less), he still deserved a start or three the second half of September.

[Ozziesfan41]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

Yikes, don't let Ecleme see this. well, doesn't matter if he sees it, he'll ignore it and claim that K rate is Matheny's fault

So was Tommy not available for def replacement?

Kinda hard to do anything when you can't see.

And when you can't hit, it's hard to bring in a player in a close game for defensive purposes when he might end up having to bat too. And if he is batting, it's likely a late, key situation, and the last player you'd want up there is a blind player striking out at the highest rate in baseball

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

And a .404 OBP if that’s what he does when he’s blind wow

Yep.

And, just my opinion, if Pham’s OPS was even .732 (100 points less), he still deserved a start or three the second half of September.

And Moss hitting .099 with a .178obp even if both hit the same start the guy who plays better defense. But hey if they want to defend MM starting a guy who hit .099 with a .178 OBP who plays bad defense and is slow every day which contributed to the cardinals missing the post season by 1 game then good for them but it was dumb

[Lloyd Braun]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Pham had an .843 ops in August, 2016

[Ozziesfan41]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September and hit .191 .248 .639 the second half

[Lloyd Braun]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

[ecleme22]

Pham had an .832 OPS in July-August.

Moss had an .843 OPS in July-August

Also... for context, Pham went 1 for his last 20 going into September.

And for more context, from July 18 - Aug 31, he hit .202. So the idea that he was great through all of July and August has been debunked.

The problem was that he had a condition called keratoconus, a condition where the cornea thins and bulges outward. This made it impossible to find the right corrective contact lenses... the lenses would move around in his eye, causing blurry vision.

During the AS Break in 2016 he went to see a specialist who made specific lenses. Unfortunately, they did not hold because every time the cornea changed, the contacts being useless. Pham also described the issue as worsening when he's running and moving around a lot, and sweating.

By the time September came around, he was nearly useless again because the eye issue. It would make sense that the only thing he could probably do is pinch hit, because it would be the least amount of moving around.

Let's just pause for a moment here to remember what this argument was about.

You claimed that Matheny is a moron and a bad manager and that the Tommy Pham / Brandon Moss 2016 September usage was proof. Well that narrative was just thoroughly and indisputably destroyed.

I've gone back through the entire thread and nobody claimed Matheny was a great manager. Nobody. The only claim made in his favor was that he was not bad like the old narrative suggested and after Mo revealed all his true colors, the Matheny era should be re-examined through that lens.

And then you went ballistic with nonsense like claiming a blind player with a degenerative eye condition should have played more, and that's proof Matheny sucked.

I've read you talk about it before. It's literally something you've been holding onto for nearly a decade and the entire narrative was just obliterated as false.

It'll be interesting to see where you go from here.

Moss was 1-15 going into September

And if he had a degenerative eye issue that made him unplayable, while Pham was healthy, it would have been Pham getting playing time.

I love how you are all ignoring the fact that Pham was basically dealing with blindness.

Think how pathetic your argument is to ignore the most important and critical element

Pham had an .843 ops in August, 2016, which was his best month thus far that year.