Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[Melville]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-50% out, depending on how PR conscious you are, and the Cardinals are very PR conscious. (People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.)

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Agreed.
But, as I stated previously, I am neither interested nor available.
So perhaps there is no list at all.

LOL. I appreciate your knowledge of baseball which is real. You're probably right more often than wrong, which is pretty good for CT, especially considering the number of testable claims you make.

The fun is you never admit to being wrong.

And it's your humor that makes you worth reading. I see your stuff for what it is: A performance. And you're as good at that as anyone here.

Cheers

And to you!
Appreciate the spirit of your post.

[Basil Shabazz]

The below are whom I consider the most
savvy baseball contributors here.

E. Ecleme

Thread credibility lost.

My vote goes to Basil.
He's the only one [that I know}
that has actually been a G.M.
Birmingham Bulls, if my memory serves.

Memphis Xplorers ArenaFootball2. In the same geographic region, though.

[Absolut]

This thread is like voting for an all male homecoming court.

[mattmitchl44]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

[Ike Hammett]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

[Quincy Varnish]

You need someone who knows baseball history, modern metrics, and has a good knowledge of players. Someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics; plus someone who is not a self aggrandizing egomaniac, and neither a complete jerk nor a total homer. And someone with enough political sense not to say: "Molina is overrated." (That leaves me out.)

The only poster here who might warrant an interview : RBI

Honorable mention to Matt

I actually talked to a team about a job a little over a decade ago… I was very interested, but the money sucked.

I did not realize Kutis Funeral Home paid people for that

[An Old Friend]

You need someone who knows baseball history, modern metrics, and has a good knowledge of players. Someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics; plus someone who is not a self aggrandizing egomaniac, and neither a complete jerk nor a total homer. And someone with enough political sense not to say: "Molina is overrated." (That leaves me out.)

The only poster here who might warrant an interview : RBI

Honorable mention to Matt

I actually talked to a team about a job a little over a decade ago… I was very interested, but the money sucked.

I did not realize Kutis Funeral Home paid people for that

I don’t understand the joke

[Cranny]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

[Ike Hammett]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

[Cranny]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

[mattmitchl44]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

There is no way the Cardinals can afford that 70/30 model in 2025 on a $175, $180, etc. million payroll. The math just doesn't work.

To have a team that you expect to be a 92 win team - a solid postseason threat - you need a talent level of about 45 fWAR.

At best, if you are just buying talent from full market value veterans (your "real pros"), it costs you about $8 million per fWAR. So to just "buy" even 2/3 of your necessary talent (30 fWAR) would be expected to cost ~$240 million (30 fWAR x $8 million per fWAR). And then you still have to add another $20, $30, etc. million for your young players giving you the other 15 fWAR. So your model ends up with you needing about a $270 million payroll.

The Cardinals can afford to buy about 1/3 (15 fWAR) of their talent from "real pros", which will cost them about $120 million. Then the other 30 fWAR needs to come from cost controlled young players who combine to be paid $55-$60 million.

That's how the math works.