Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[desertrat23]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

[Ike Hammett]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

All of those problems are solved by winning. The Cardinals didn’t have a hard time generating interest when they were good.

Yes but No, it's the reverse. Winning comes from the structure and mindset along with the support. It's the Yankee doodle dandies Vs. the Tampa Bay Rays. Does it really matter how much the Rays win? The Yanks will still be better at everything in the minds of most. Yes, you can argue it's been because of their winning history but they haven't won a WS since 2009. The Rays literally play in the in the warm up/ minor league park of the Yanks. The future of Cards baseball needs to be the Yankee model far more than the Rays. Isn't that what you want as a fan?

The economics of baseball is ensuring that the Cardinals cannot come close to the Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. in terms of a "model" by which to be consistently successful.

The Cardinals "model" has to be more like Cleveland, Milwaukee, and yes Tampa Bay - only with the Cardinals having the payroll resources to do what they do, but better.

Nope, and that mindset is what is driving St. Louis baseball into mediocrity at a fast pace. Sure I'm about savvy and shrewd baseball descions and making great deals but the Cards are a crown jewel of baseball. The fantasy GM of Cards talk in delusional world needs to bring the club up to that level through their skills and smarts not settle for mediocrity and no WS like Cleveland, Milwaukee and Tampa. There are many factors that can contribute to making this happen if you get creative enough and don't limit yourself into a have not mentality. I've seen the Cards compete on their levels both historically and recently. Where are the 3+ million fans willing to spend and be extremely loyal? You are killing them off with that mindset. Change that mindset and you can be just as successful as the Yanks and Dodgers! The fantasy armchair fake wannabe Cards Talk GM needs to be able to do that. Not what you are doing, DISQUALIFIED!

As I clearly said - they need to do it like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc. - BUT BETTER, because they can spend another $50+ million on the ML payroll than those teams.

You can only acquire talent a few ways - draft it, sign it internationally, trade for it (but you have to have prospects/players other teams want in return), or pay for it. The Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. "model" can be based on just paying for it much moreso than than Cardinals, Guardians, Brewers, Rays, etc.

The Cardinals - like the Guardians, Brewers, Rays, etc. - have to put more of a priority on developing draft picks and international signings, because that is how they are going get the cost-controlled talent (or where they are going to get the prospects they need to trade for talent) they have to have to compete with the Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc.

The Cardinals need to be one of the best organizations at developing their own talent so that they can then use their payroll resources to selectively add to what they have developed internally better than the Guardians, Brewers, Rays, etc. can.

Sure, nobody is debating making savvy and shrewd baseball moves and developing prospects along with development. Do you not think that is part of the Dodgers, Yanks, Mets etc beliefs and philosophy also? They're good at that also. When that is the sole belief and corner stone of it, you will not get to where you want consistently like you want. AND YES, THAT IS AND HAS BEEN PART OF THE CARDS PHILOSOPHY AND MODEL! Their plan and beliefs (as I understand it) has been to do that then add what pieces they need to bring them to the top. We might be posting the same thing, but you are spinning it towards the Guardians, Brewers and Rays who have weaker support and resources where I want some crown jewel stuff. That junk doesn't sell, and that's what this is about.

Please do tell your plan that fixes this ship that hasn't been tried with that structure which is killing the club?

The difference is - when you are a team with more limited resources than the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc. - you have to get the foundation right first, and the foundation if you are the Cardinals, Guardians, Brewers, Rays, etc. is having enough young, developed, cost controlled talent, not the "crown jewel stuff." You only add expensive pieces from outside the organization AFTER you have your foundation of young players to build around. Adding expensive pieces - like a Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. - without first having the foundation right isn't going to get them anywhere because the Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Mets, etc. will always have MORE expensive pieces and much MORE talent than the Cardinals can compete with.

The plan they are hopefully on is the right plan - do everything necessary to re-establish a lot of talent on the ML roster that is under age 27/28, then take stock of what holes remain, and fill those selectively with the payroll muscle you have to do it with.

You're killing me Smalls! THAT IS THE CARDS MODEL! Lock, stock and barrel! It is what they have strived for, for decades and what Mr. Mo and his team try to accomplish and have accomplished!

Actually they HAVEN'T been doing that for a number of years. Prior to their stated "rebuild" or "reset" this season, they've not been focused enough on ensuring they have a lot of young talent.

From 2021 to 2024, the Cardinals were 10th in team fWAR from batters age 28 and under, and 23rd in team fWAR from pitchers age 28 and under. That's not nearly good enough.

Cleveland was 6th in batters and 1st in pitchers. Milwaukee was 7th in batters and 2nd in pitchers. Tampa Bay was 4th in batters and 13th in pitchers.

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

But, I get where you are coming from (I think) even if you don't. Just ask for an updated 2025/2030s model of what we already got. I can get down with that and think that's what the Cards are looking for. Definitely looks like none of these wannabe GMs are bringing that. DISQUALIFIED!

[mattmitchl44]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

[Ike Hammett]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

[thetank2]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

These last 10 years had 9 winning seasons. 93 wins in 2022. Somehow hiring a GM who finished last 3 times with the Red Sox and 2 seasons later the Red Sox are below .500 has people on here believing Bloom is a Saviour shows the extent of a few vocal posters on here.

With 3 or 4 rounds of playoffs you need luck. The best team doesn't win the World Series it's the one who wins series.

[mattmitchl44]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

[desertrat23]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

These last 10 years had 9 winning seasons. 93 wins in 2022. Somehow hiring a GM who finished last 3 times with the Red Sox and 2 seasons later the Red Sox are below .500 has people on here believing Bloom is a Saviour shows the extent of a few vocal posters on here.

With 3 or 4 rounds of playoffs you need luck. The best team doesn't win the World Series it's the one who wins series.

This all boils down to whether or not you can consider a year "good" without playoff success. You do. In this market, I do not. Just a fundamental difference, I guess.

[imadangman]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

These last 10 years had 9 winning seasons. 93 wins in 2022. Somehow hiring a GM who finished last 3 times with the Red Sox and 2 seasons later the Red Sox are below .500 has people on here believing Bloom is a Saviour shows the extent of a few vocal posters on here.

With 3 or 4 rounds of playoffs you need luck. The best team doesn't win the World Series it's the one who wins series.

This all boils down to whether or not you can consider a year "good" without playoff success. You do. In this market, I do not. Just a fundamental difference, I guess.

I don't think they got the most out of what they had. For getting Goldschmidt-Arenado, which were both excellent trades and extensions, they really should have had more to show for it than 1 season saved by a 17-game win streak and another saved by a 42 year old with a .700 slugging pct for the entire second half. Both of which were followed by weak first round playoff exits. Flukey outcomes which masked paper-thin pitching staffs and next-to-zero development/contribution of homegrown players. The Goldschmidt-Arenado window also was not supposed to come to a grinding halt the way it did in 2023. I think that era of Cardinal was a massive failure, despite having some good players and exciting moments.

[desertrat23]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

These last 10 years had 9 winning seasons. 93 wins in 2022. Somehow hiring a GM who finished last 3 times with the Red Sox and 2 seasons later the Red Sox are below .500 has people on here believing Bloom is a Saviour shows the extent of a few vocal posters on here.

With 3 or 4 rounds of playoffs you need luck. The best team doesn't win the World Series it's the one who wins series.

This all boils down to whether or not you can consider a year "good" without playoff success. You do. In this market, I do not. Just a fundamental difference, I guess.

I don't think they got the most out of what they had. For getting Goldschmidt-Arenado, which were both excellent trades and extensions, they really should have had more to show for it than 1 season saved by a 17-game win streak and another saved by a 42 year old with a .700 slugging pct for the entire second half. Both of which were followed by weak first round playoff exits. Flukey outcomes which masked paper-thin pitching staffs and next-to-zero development/contribution of homegrown players. The Goldschmidt-Arenado window also was not supposed to come to a grinding halt the way it did in 2023. I think that era of Cardinal was a massive failure, despite having some good players and exciting moments.

Exactly. I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than a massive failure.

And what are the repercussions? Managers got fired. Coaches got fired. Players moved. The GM got reassigned to a made-up role.

Who’s the only constant? Who’s the only one who faced ZERO accountability for it? Teflon Mo.

[Melville]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-50% out, depending on how PR conscious you are, and the Cardinals are very PR conscious. (People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.)

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Agreed.
But, as I stated previously, I am neither interested nor available.
So perhaps there is no list at all.

[Ike Hammett]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

[Red Bird Classic]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-50% out, depending on how PR conscious you are, and the Cardinals are very PR conscious. (People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.)

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Agreed.
But, as I stated previously, I am neither interested nor available.
So perhaps there is no list at all.

LOL. I appreciate your knowledge of baseball which is real. You're probably right more often than wrong, which is pretty good for CT, especially considering the number of testable claims you make.

The fun is you never admit to being wrong.

And it's your humor that makes you worth reading. I see your stuff for what it is: A performance. And you're as good at that as anyone here.

Cheers

[cardinalsfever44]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

The Blues have won 1 playoff round in the last 6 years and local fans think they are they best run franchise in the history of sports.

[Red Bird Classic]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

The Blues have won 1 playoff round in the last 6 years and local fans think they are they best run franchise in the history of sports.

Hockey fans are punchy. Too many high sticks. You ever checked a players dental records? They've got fewer teeth than some birds.

[fullswing]

If you guys could have seen the season I had playing in second grade, you would know that I have a great baseball mind and would be the best GM. I was spectacular.

[desertrat23]

Note: If I were GM I'd fire most of you.

+1

Especially those who believe a GM has a bad year that if you replace him you automatically will improve. Nonsense. The Blues lost 4 GMs who went into the HOF with other teams.

How many bad years, then? What does one playoff series win know 10 years count for?

The Blues have won 1 playoff round in the last 6 years and local fans think they are they best run franchise in the history of sports.

No, but they’re aggressive. They try to win, unlike their friends up Clark Street.