Why would you have a pitcher throw 109 pitches with a 10 run lead?

[hugeCardfan]

Fedde was in complete control of that game. Was never in trouble; sailing by each innings. To waste a reliever for this game seems wasteful. Fedde never tossed a complete game shutout. He won't forget this one.

[Carp4Cy]

Because that's what men do.

This.

It’s guaranteed the bullpen will hit a wall at some point in the summer- thru always do. Saving them the pen some appearances now can only help.

Starters otoh, are supposed to go 180+ ip per year and they get plenty of recovery days off to handle it.

[An Old Friend]

When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??

The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.

SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??

Drives me crazy. Baseball got all out of whack. They stopped training to be able to do it… and seemingly forgot that part of the beauty of baseball has always been the starting pitcher. Historically they’ve been the hero of the story and people paid and tuned in to see great pitching matchups.

Now you get Jacob deGrom throwing 6 shutout innings with 7 strikeouts and pulled after 65 pitches.

LoL...DeGrom isn't a supportive reference. He hasn't started more than 12 games in a season since 2019

Not really the point. You really think there’s too much risk pushing deGrom further when he’s dominating like that?

[scoutyjones2]

When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??

The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.

SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??

Drives me crazy. Baseball got all out of whack. They stopped training to be able to do it… and seemingly forgot that part of the beauty of baseball has always been the starting pitcher. Historically they’ve been the hero of the story and people paid and tuned in to see great pitching matchups.

Now you get Jacob deGrom throwing 6 shutout innings with 7 strikeouts and pulled after 65 pitches.

LoL...DeGrom isn't a supportive reference. He hasn't started more than 12 games in a season since 2019

Not really the point. You really think there’s too much risk pushing deGrom further when he’s dominating like that?

You chose poorly.

[An Old Friend]

When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??

The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.

SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??

Drives me crazy. Baseball got all out of whack. They stopped training to be able to do it… and seemingly forgot that part of the beauty of baseball has always been the starting pitcher. Historically they’ve been the hero of the story and people paid and tuned in to see great pitching matchups.

Now you get Jacob deGrom throwing 6 shutout innings with 7 strikeouts and pulled after 65 pitches.

LoL...DeGrom isn't a supportive reference. He hasn't started more than 12 games in a season since 2019

Not really the point. You really think there’s too much risk pushing deGrom further when he’s dominating like that?

You chose poorly.

You’re choosing to be wound up about a weird thing.

We’re talking about pitch counts and I referenced one of the top paid pitchers in the game getting lifted after 65 innings. Seems pretty relevant. Sorry you didn’t like the example.

[desertrat23]

lol, it’s 109 pitches, don’t worry his arm won’t fall off.

Fully agree.

My son threw 92 pitches last week in a game, his arm didn’t fall off. I am sure Fedde will be fine. Analytics are killing this game.

How old is your son?

16

Thanks. If he was 12 or 13 I would say it was too many.

There are league limits on how many they can throw. His age is 95 (can’t start a batter after 95). I believe 12 year olds is 75 off memory.

My son plays 8U and it’s a 50-pitch limit. But them pitching at that age at all is kind of stupid.

My son wasn’t, I would be concerned on an 8U kid throwing that much. He never pitched in minors and only once or twice in majors.

My son never had a coach give him a real chance so he would only pitch three or four times a year (spring, summer and fall combined), some games being an inning or two. High School coach only wanted to use him as the starting shortstop, but was short on pitchers one game. Asked him if he ever pitched which my son said yes. He started that game and pitched great so he will probably get one more chance this spring.

In 16 years he has pitched less than 15 times, but he going through a massive growth spurt and also lifting so people are starting to notice. My cousins son pitched professionally in the Giants system. Had to retire in his early 20’s for an injury (not Tommy John).

Yeah, everybody knows what’s best for their kids, I just think it’s silly for 8U kids to pitch not just because of arm trouble, but because they can’t throw strikes. He had his 3rd-place game this morning and it was walk after walk after walk after hit batter. Because they can’t throw strikes kids get one AB, maybe two, per game. We’re letting kids pitch because it’s “real baseball,” but it’s to the detriment of teaching kids to swing, field, etc.

[An Old Friend]

Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply

Ok, pardon my ignorance, but what is Tommy John Sx?

Preventative Tommy John surgery should never be a thing, and if those families have done that or signed off on that for their kids, I feel badly for the players. That’s stupid.

[ecleme22]

Fedde was in complete control of that game. Was never in trouble; sailing by each innings. To waste a reliever for this game seems wasteful. Fedde never tossed a complete game shutout. He won't forget this one.

Right.

And it’s not like he threw 130 pitches

[Stlcardsblues]

lol, it’s 109 pitches, don’t worry his arm won’t fall off.

Fully agree.

My son threw 92 pitches last week in a game, his arm didn’t fall off. I am sure Fedde will be fine. Analytics are killing this game.

How old is your son?

16

Thanks. If he was 12 or 13 I would say it was too many.

There are league limits on how many they can throw. His age is 95 (can’t start a batter after 95). I believe 12 year olds is 75 off memory.

My son plays 8U and it’s a 50-pitch limit. But them pitching at that age at all is kind of stupid.

My son wasn’t, I would be concerned on an 8U kid throwing that much. He never pitched in minors and only once or twice in majors.

My son never had a coach give him a real chance so he would only pitch three or four times a year (spring, summer and fall combined), some games being an inning or two. High School coach only wanted to use him as the starting shortstop, but was short on pitchers one game. Asked him if he ever pitched which my son said yes. He started that game and pitched great so he will probably get one more chance this spring.

In 16 years he has pitched less than 15 times, but he going through a massive growth spurt and also lifting so people are starting to notice. My cousins son pitched professionally in the Giants system. Had to retire in his early 20’s for an injury (not Tommy John).

Yeah, everybody knows what’s best for their kids, I just think it’s silly for 8U kids to pitch not just because of arm trouble, but because they can’t throw strikes. He had his 3rd-place game this morning and it was walk after walk after walk after hit batter. Because they can’t throw strikes kids get one AB, maybe two, per game. We’re letting kids pitch because it’s “real baseball,” but it’s to the detriment of teaching kids to swing, field, etc.

I don’t miss the walk fests. Those are difficult to watch.

[Absolut]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... urce=yahoo


Read this on pitch counts

[jbrach]

guys like gibson and seaver etc struck out about 7 guys per 9 innings because they went into the game knowing they were expected to complete the game...they paced themselves and ramped it up when they needed a strikeout...imagine what gibsons ERA would have been if instead of his throwing 28 CG in 34 starts he was told he had a 100 pitch limit and would likely be out of the game after 5 or 6 innings?..

[Charlie Smoke]

This thread is a huge pile of fresh, steaming dog poop.

[vegascardsfan5890]

Kolek for the Padres just pitched a complete game shutout on 105 pitches in a 21-0 game.

Would you have gotten on Shildt?

[illiniriles]

Hi Old Friend. You ask an important question. Tommy John surgery is the procedure to repair a partially or completely torn Ulnar Collateral Ligament on the anatomical medial (inside) position of the elbow if you are laying on your back with your palm facing up. A tendon is harvested from another area of your body and run in the same direction as the damaged ligament and hopefully secured in place permanently into holes drilled into the bones and with bone anchors. The UCL undergoes tremendous stress and strain from pitching. Not just due to the higher velocity that most pitchers are trying to attain, but even more so from the torque on the elbow from higher spin rates. I believe the procedure was developed by world famous orthopedic surgeon Dr James Andrews, and first performed on starting pitcher Tommy John. Hence the name for the procedure.
Pretty sure that's accurate.

[ScotchMIrish]

Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply

duplicate

[ScotchMIrish]

Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply

You're welcome. Most of those old timers began their career prior to the lowering of the mound. That changed everything.

https://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2 ... rom_23.php

From the 1988 Bill James Abstract

"The problem is, Saberhagen was pitching too much. Now, I don't mean that pitching 161 innings in a half-season is necessarily destructive. Working in a four-man rotation, seven innings a start and occasionally eight or nine, for some pitchers, might be all right. The critical factor isn't the number of innings pitched, but the number of innings pitched when tired...

(James lists number of innings pitches for Saberhagen's first 18 starts in 1987)

...In the game that he pitched 7 2/3 he threw 142 pitches. What makes this so irritating, in retrospect, is that it was so unnecessary. Those games include wins by the scored (sic) of 13-1, 10-2, 6-1, 4-0, 4-1, 6-1, 10-5, 6-0, and 10-3. In Saberhagen's first 16 starts the Royals outscored the opposition 99 to 35. In game after game, the risks involved in letting somebody else finish up would have been minimal; the worst reliever in baseball couldn't have lost more than a couple of those games."