Goldfan wrote: ↑10 May 2025 08:03 am
When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??
The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.
SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??
Drives me crazy. Baseball got all out of whack. They stopped training to be able to do it… and seemingly forgot that part of the beauty of baseball has always been the starting pitcher. Historically they’ve been the hero of the story and people paid and tuned in to see great pitching matchups.
Now you get Jacob deGrom throwing 6 shutout innings with 7 strikeouts and pulled after 65 pitches.
Goldfan wrote: ↑10 May 2025 08:03 am
When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??
The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.
SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??
Drives me crazy. Baseball got all out of whack. They stopped training to be able to do it… and seemingly forgot that part of the beauty of baseball has always been the starting pitcher. Historically they’ve been the hero of the story and people paid and tuned in to see great pitching matchups.
Now you get Jacob deGrom throwing 6 shutout innings with 7 strikeouts and pulled after 65 pitches.
LoL...DeGrom isn't a supportive reference. He hasn't started more than 12 games in a season since 2019
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑09 May 2025 21:14 pm
Interesting.
Leo Mazzone former pitching coach for the Braves has always said the number of pitches and innings is determined by how he has struggled or is breezing in a game. It was a good call on Fedde last night he was breezing.
"The problem is, Saberhagen was pitching too much. Now, I don't mean that pitching 161 innings in a half-season is necessarily destructive. Working in a four-man rotation, seven innings a start and occasionally eight or nine, for some pitchers, might be all right. The critical factor isn't the number of innings pitched, but the number of innings pitched when tired...
(James lists number of innings pitches for Saberhagen's first 18 starts in 1987)
...In the game that he pitched 7 2/3 he threw 142 pitches. What makes this so irritating, in retrospect, is that it was so unnecessary. Those games include wins by the scored (sic) of 13-1, 10-2, 6-1, 4-0, 4-1, 6-1, 10-5, 6-0, and 10-3. In Saberhagen's first 16 starts the Royals outscored the opposition 99 to 35. In game after game, the risks involved in letting somebody else finish up would have been minimal; the worst reliever in baseball couldn't have lost more than a couple of those games."
Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply
illiniriles wrote: ↑10 May 2025 10:17 am
Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply
well said -- i was more inclined to react this way vs the meaning of the post. it meant more to fedde to stay in the game and he probably asked/almost demanded to be left in. He was playing catch with pages as the nats had indeed checked out. CG shutouts are few and far between, i wonder if Fedde has ever had one in the majors?
Goldfan wrote: ↑10 May 2025 08:03 am
When did it become a “thing” to worry or complain about a vet ML pitcher throwing 100 pitches?? Who came up with the 100 #? Are all pitchers the same??
The arbitrary 100 pitch limit is one of the dumbest measures that baseball has allowed to govern and dictate their behaviors.
SP are in the 95 percentile or better in terms of size for all males. And are considerably larger than 50 years ago. Have the most advanced nutrition and training known to man…..but for some reason cant throw close to the numbers of pitches as past generations??
Expectations have changed.
Nope
The MONEY $$$$ has changed!
In the pre multi-million dollar starter days Owners (who make the financial investment) and Managers would throw a pitcher dar near till their arms fell off.
League leaders topped 300+ innings almost yearly w/more just behind them!
BUT
When pitchers became BIG TICKET investments, Owner's didn't want to see than money sitting on the DL/IL.
Toss in pitchers from HS on now throwing fewer & fewer innings and very few have the arm strength to go anywhere near 250 innings+ since 2000.
Heard in interview with Fedde that when Fedde went into dugout after top of 8th completed , Oli looked at him and said only this 'Finish it ! '
You could see the smile on Fedde's face after finishing that game. It was a special moment and one can't measure the confidence that instills in a player to have that special accomplishment. You could see his teammates were jacked too after that final out. They also know it was a special moment .
ramfandan wrote: ↑10 May 2025 10:46 am
Heard in interview with Fedde that when Fedde went into dugout after top of 8th completed , Oli looked at him and said only this 'Finish it ! '
You could see the smile on Fedde's face after finishing that game. It was a special moment and one can't measure the confidence that instills in a player to have that special accomplishment. You could see his teammates were jacked too after that final out. They also know it was a special moment .
illiniriles wrote: ↑10 May 2025 10:17 am
Thanks for the interesting original post, Scotch Irish. I had no problem with Marmol leaving Fedde in to complete his gem. And just watching Fedde, you could easily see how much it meant to HIM as well. When he lifted up Pages after completing his CG SO that was a really cool moment. When Winn handed Fedde the game ball of the last recorded out, that was really cool, too. I'd say that judging by the post game on field celebration it meant more to the entire team than just another win.
Most of us played or at least loved and understand the game better than most. I used to really appreciate when Red, or Torre, or Whitey or especially Tony would make the slow walk out to the mound to talk to our laboring starter trying to finish a complete game. If they would give him a pat on the rear, and leave him in, the place would go up for grabs. We were invested in that complete game.
That being said, should Fedde's performance suffer post this game, I'm sure we'll all play judge and jury. Personally, over the last few years I've gotten to know the families of some top pitching prospects. Nathan Lavender for the Rays, McCade Brown in High A, Spokane for the Rockies organization, and a SP/Closer for Illinois State whose name I can't recall. ALL THREE HAVE ALREADY HAD TOMMY JOHN Sx! In addition, it is becoming increasingly common for the families and ball clubs of pitching prospects to undergo Tommy John Sx, prophylactically cuz they know it's just a matter of time before they blow out their UCL, anyhow. So while it's fun to enjoy the increasingly rare accomplishment of a complete game, and look back longingly at the performances of Gibby, and Carlton,and Waino, and Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan, and Seaver, et al; remember it's not our career/life.
Sorry for the long reply
well said -- i was more inclined to react this way vs the meaning of the post. it meant more to fedde to stay in the game and he probably asked/almost demanded to be left in. He was playing catch with pages as the nats had indeed checked out. CG shutouts are few and far between, i wonder if Fedde has ever had one in the majors?
Only CG shut out for Fedde. He doesn't even have another complete game.
