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Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Wouldn't that depend upon how much McGreevey develops?

https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/stats/pitching

Liberatore ERA 4.27
McGreevey ERA 4-43.

Not bad for their age but far from dominant. We need someone to step up and be an ace or at least a solid #2.

We’ve got our #3-5 set at least. If Sonny sticks around.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Libby’s problem is he throws way too many non competitive pitches. And is behind in the count to often. He should know that better by now. McGreevey looks to be to hittable, kind of like Miles.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:59 pm https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/stats/pitching

Liberatore ERA 4.27
McGreevey ERA 4-43.

Not bad for their age but far from dominant. We need someone to step up and be an ace or at least a solid #2.

They both will probably be much better when Dusty is gone

Voldemort wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Wouldn't that depend upon how much McGreevey develops?

He’s 25 years old already. My point is we used to develop our pitching prospects must faster and much stronger and more dominant and durable to begin with before their age 25 season.


Also see Lance Lynn. 18-7 and 3.x era at age 25.

Braund241 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 22:27 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Libby’s problem is he throws way too many non competitive pitches. And is behind in the count to often. He should know that better by now. McGreevey looks to be to hittable, kind of like Miles.

Liberatore is in his first full season as a starter and McGreevy is a rookie.

Our culture of impatience knows no bounds.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 22:50 pm

Braund241 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 22:27 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Libby’s problem is he throws way too many non competitive pitches. And is behind in the count to often. He should know that better by now. McGreevey looks to be to hittable, kind of like Miles.

Liberatore is in his first full season as a starter and McGreevy is a rookie.

Our culture of impatience knows no bounds.

I just listed several other pitchers in their first full seasons

By the time they’re 25 and 27 theres already been a lot of patience

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 23:03 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 22:50 pm

Braund241 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 22:27 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Libby’s problem is he throws way too many non competitive pitches. And is behind in the count to often. He should know that better by now. McGreevey looks to be to hittable, kind of like Miles.

Liberatore is in his first full season as a starter and McGreevy is a rookie.

Our culture of impatience knows no bounds.

I just listed several other pitchers in their first full seasons

By the time they’re 25 and 27 theres already been a lot of patience

If you say so.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

They're cheap options to have in the back of your rotation and that can be valuable. Look at how much we're paying MM to basically give us that production. Need to develop and/or sign/trade for a couple of top end options.

alw80 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 06:22 am They're cheap options to have in the back of your rotation and that can be valuable. Look at how much we're paying MM to basically give us that production. Need to develop and/or sign/trade for a couple of top end options.

Yes. They work well for the 3/4/5 slots. Some days they throw a 5, some days they throw a 3.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

What you fail to mention is that, other than Martinez who had his own set of problems, each of these pitches faced significant injury problems following those seasons. Morris and Benes each missed more than an entire season immediately following those early successes. Wacha had shoulder trouble even while he was pitching well. Not saying that Liberatore and McGreevey won't face injury problems but it's not accurate to compare their development with these pitchers unless you include the information regarding their injury history, too.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 06:20 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

My takeaway from Carp's post is that neither of these guys gets a postseason start on a good playoff team. They each look like a #4 or #5 starter. Most of the Cards MLB roster look like complimentary pieces on a playoff roster. We used to be better at drafting and developing starting pitchers.

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 06:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 06:20 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 20:14 pm Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

My takeaway from Carp's post is that neither of these guys gets a postseason start on a good playoff team. They each look like a #4 or #5 starter. Most of the Cards MLB roster look like complimentary pieces on a playoff roster. We used to be better at drafting and developing starting pitchers.

I agree on the post season starts, might not even get a post season start here. But you got to have them and on any given day they could throw a gem.

Better offense output might cure some ails, as will not giving up early runs.