After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol

[OldRed]

Just being loyal to a long time friend who had helped bring winning seasons for many years.

Sentimentality belongs in the marketing department, not in the board room per who is running the franchise into the ground, as it turned out. If loyalty mattered that much to Dewitt, then he should have purchased Mozeliak a Bentley and told him to hit the road in it.

BDW, Jr. has his way of showing loyalty, and you have yours. No problem.

Yes, problem.

I'm not at the helm of one of 30 major league baseball teams. Undue loyalty to Mozeliak postponed the corrective actions that the franchise needed to take in order to begin the journey back to being truly, as opposed to tangentially, competitive.

30 year employees who have contributed to great success are treated with respect.

And are terminated when no longer adequately meeting the challenge at hand.

Not to mention the lack of "fan loyalty",that was discarded, by keeping him employed in a position that he was clearly failing at.

Fan loyalty can be restored by a serious, competent individual such as Bloom. He is someone for whom the phrase "trust the process" is worth subscribing to.

Mozeliak's failures aren't something that will forever stand as the entry point of a dark era in the franchise's history. However, as with many stories that end on a bad note, said ending could have been handled differently, especially considering Mo served at the pleasure of Dewitt. If one accepts that "the end" didn't trumpet its arrival until attendance started going in a direction that this franchise can ill afford, you also have to wonder otoh(paraphrasing my earlier post) if attendance had proven resilient, would Bloom be a Cardinal employee today?

If IC were a business owner - "I know he's been here for 30 years, and been a loyal employee who's helped bring us a great deal of success, but he's of little use now, so off with his head"!

Funny, as I am a business owner and am not known for beheading anyone. However, I do expect results from both my new and veteran employees {as well as myself} as I don't take for granted that customers are going to continue to patronize my business simply because I have a nice family and/or the business was successful 10 or 15 years ago.

Ditto. 30 year business owner here. Lets say one of my long time employees started making mistakes that negatively effect my customers, if after having discussions with said employee, the mistakes continued to happen! Do I let the employee keep going and making my customers go somewhere else, or do I have to terminate the employee, even though I would take no pleasure in doing so.

Now take my analogy above, the "clients" are the fans. Bill let Mo continue to make mistakes after mistakes for years. While doing so, he chased off a good amount of "clients"! Can he get them back thru positive actions by his new "employee" Bloom? More than likely, yes. As long as competitive baseball shows up before too many years pass by. If we do not field a competive team for several years, then my answer changes to no, he won't get some of the "clients" back. Good thing you weren't a business owner Cranny, if you think Bill handled the G.M. situation properly!

Remember, Bill could of always reassigned him to a different position. He didn't necessarily have to be fired.

Excellent analysis...as a business owner as well, I have argued that DeTwit failed to respond to the fans dissatisfaction in recent years...and now the fans have responded...too many front office (donkey) kissers refuse to understand this.

This true!

[Voldemort]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

[Cranny]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

[Goldfan]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

Lets throw in there
PDJ
Bader
TO
Noot
Reyes
Heck that’s a whole team that ya’ll got FOOLED by the same owner and POBO that these players were worth a bucket of baseballs….
“If only our low talent youngster would be good we’d have won multiple WS by now”…….it’s really a shame they weren’t good

If only I married a supermodel and won that 1bil Powerball jackpot…..my how life would be different…..

[Ozziesfan41]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

And if Mo hadn’t demolished the player development system some of those players may have been better

[Goldfan]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

There were no CAN’T MISS prospects…..there were MO propaganda stories……when we finally watched all these players, the GAPING HOLES in their game were very obvious to the person sitting at home on the couch. Why the highly paid MLB professionals in the Cards org couldn’t see this

[Clubmaker2]

Had to overhype to justify not doing something else that needed to be done instead.

[ICCFIM2]

Just being loyal to a long time friend who had helped bring winning seasons for many years.

Sentimentality belongs in the marketing department, not in the board room per who is running the franchise into the ground, as it turned out. If loyalty mattered that much to Dewitt, then he should have purchased Mozeliak a Bentley and told him to hit the road in it.

BDW, Jr. has his way of showing loyalty, and you have yours. No problem.

Yes, problem.

I'm not at the helm of one of 30 major league baseball teams. Undue loyalty to Mozeliak postponed the corrective actions that the franchise needed to take in order to begin the journey back to being truly, as opposed to tangentially, competitive.

30 year employees who have contributed to great success are treated with respect.

And are terminated when no longer adequately meeting the challenge at hand.

Not to mention the lack of "fan loyalty",that was discarded, by keeping him employed in a position that he was clearly failing at.

Fan loyalty can be restored by a serious, competent individual such as Bloom. He is someone for whom the phrase "trust the process" is worth subscribing to.

Mozeliak's failures aren't something that will forever stand as the entry point of a dark era in the franchise's history. However, as with many stories that end on a bad note, said ending could have been handled differently, especially considering Mo served at the pleasure of Dewitt. If one accepts that "the end" didn't trumpet its arrival until attendance started going in a direction that this franchise can ill afford, you also have to wonder otoh(paraphrasing my earlier post) if attendance had proven resilient, would Bloom be a Cardinal employee today?

If IC were a business owner - "I know he's been here for 30 years, and been a loyal employee who's helped bring us a great deal of success, but he's of little use now, so off with his head"!

Funny, as I am a business owner and am not known for beheading anyone. However, I do expect results from both my new and veteran employees {as well as myself} as I don't take for granted that customers are going to continue to patronize my business simply because I have a nice family and/or the business was successful 10 or 15 years ago.

Ditto. 30 year business owner here. Lets say one of my long time employees started making mistakes that negatively effect my customers, if after having discussions with said employee, the mistakes continued to happen! Do I let the employee keep going and making my customers go somewhere else, or do I have to terminate the employee, even though I would take no pleasure in doing so.

Now take my analogy above, the "clients" are the fans. Bill let Mo continue to make mistakes after mistakes for years. While doing so, he chased off a good amount of "clients"! Can he get them back thru positive actions by his new "employee" Bloom? More than likely, yes. As long as competitive baseball shows up before too many years pass by. If we do not field a competive team for several years, then my answer changes to no, he won't get some of the "clients" back. Good thing you weren't a business owner Cranny, if you think Bill handled the G.M. situation properly!

Remember, Bill could of always reassigned him to a different position. He didn't necessarily have to be fired.

Excellent analysis...as a business owner as well, I have argued that DeTwit failed to respond to the fans dissatisfaction in recent years...and now the fans have responded...too many front office (donkey) kissers refuse to understand this.

There is an alternative narrative here. MO did what BDW told him to do, i.e. cut player development costs to put players on the field they thought could be competitive. Keep AW around to see if he could win 200 games even if it costs the team 10 wins in the standings. Extend Lizard man because he was a good guy even if the saber stats were lighting up alarm bells. MO does all that, then when it backfires, he stands there and takes the heat without flinching. The truth is likely somewhere in between. But, MO made a lot of little moves that added value, Montgomery, Jo Jo Romero, Maton, etc. that indicate he still had a touch for identifying talent. It is hard to believe that MO didn't understand he was making huge overpays for AW and Mikolas and would not have done so without being pushed to do it. If he was not pushed, it is hard to reconcile his ability to find hidden gems with making just mind boggling gaffes.

[ICCFIM2]

The incompetence of this ownership is very scary

2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.

The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.

But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.

And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.

Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.

I'd point out that 2022, when both Arenado at age 31 (7.2 fWAR) and Goldschmidt at age 34 (6.8 fWAR) had outlier "career years" (along with Pujols' unexpected contributions) to carry the team to maybe six more regular seasons wins than expected, was the season that came out of nowhere.

2023, if we consider Arenado going from 4.3 fWAR in 2021 to 2.7 fWAR in 2023 and Goldschmidt going from 4.8 fWAR in 2021 to 3.4 fWAR in 2023, was actually more predictable.

The Cardinals convinced themselves that all could be made right in 2024 instead of selling off heavily in 2023 like they should have.

Lets take a different take on the 2023 team. That teams starting 8 consisted of
Goldie 1B 35
Donovan/Gorman 2B 26/23
Dejong SS replaced by Winn at the end of the year 21
Arenado 3B 32
Contreras C 31
Walker RF 21
Nootbar CF 25
O'Neil LF 28
Burleson OF 24
Edman UT 28.

So the starting 8 already had a fair amount of decent young players. That group score 719 runs. A run total that was sufficient to get them into the 2021 playoffs when they scored 706 runs. No one should have been running for the hills with that group or thinking they did not have a young core with Walker, Nootbar, Gorman, Winn, Donovan and Burleson they could build around while eventually replacing Goldie and Arenado.

The problems came in with the pitching staff, in particular the starters. They gave up 829 runs which was just under 200 more runs than the year before. They signed AW to the legacy contract to try and allow him to win 200 games. He was almost a certain loss for many of his starts. Flaherty they knew was hurt coming into the year. Montgomery was OK before being traded. MO's big adds that offseason, Stephen Matz and Drew VerHagen. They were in need of the next ace. Kevin Gausmann was available and signed for a reasonable 5/$110M. There were another 10 veteran pitchers available that could have been signed for 1 year between 7-10M. Had they stopped the old man parade and told AW to hang them up after 2022, signed Gausman and another veteran SP instead of Matz and Verhagen, they could have had the same SP payroll with much better results. i.e. Gausman $22M + $8M veteran = $30M compared to AW $17.5M, Matz $10M and VerHagen $3M = $30.5M.

I am not saying 2023 is a playoff team. But, they dug themselves a hole in 2023. Then, instead of blowing it up like they should have after that season as you correctly suggest, they compounded the error by making it look competitive by signing some veteran starters that were OK.

[mattmitchl44]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

Yes, this has been noted before - the Cardinals "young talent deficit" right now would be close to filled if:

1) Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player
2) Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player, and
3) Liberatore was closer to a #2/#3 3+ fWAR SP

If those things were true, in particular with Wetherholt and Doyle were still on the horizon, the entire conversation about what they should consider doing would be different.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

Yes, this has been noted before - the Cardinals "young talent deficit" right now would be close to filled if:

1) Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player
2) Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player, and
3) Liberatore was closer to a #2/#3 3+ fWAR SP

If those things were true, in particular with Wetherholt and Doyle were still on the horizon, the entire conversation about what they should consider doing would be different.

You say the conversation would be different if these three develop. Since they are still on the team I’d think they think they will bloom. Isn’t that changing the conversation still.

[mattmitchl44]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

Yes, this has been noted before - the Cardinals "young talent deficit" right now would be close to filled if:

1) Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player
2) Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player, and
3) Liberatore was closer to a #2/#3 3+ fWAR SP

If those things were true, in particular with Wetherholt and Doyle were still on the horizon, the entire conversation about what they should consider doing would be different.

You say the conversation would be different if these three develop. Since they are still on the team I’d think they think they will bloom. Isn’t that changing the conversation still.

If the Cardinals can salvage anything from Walker and Gorman, that will certainly change the outlook for the team going forward.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Here is what it came down to. A significant number of can-not-miss major impact prospects were busts.

Exactly. If Walker, Carlson, Thompson, Liberatore, and Gorman had produced, we'd be in a whole different position today.

Yes, this has been noted before - the Cardinals "young talent deficit" right now would be close to filled if:

1) Walker had developed into a 4+ fWAR player
2) Gorman had developed into a 3+ fWAR player, and
3) Liberatore was closer to a #2/#3 3+ fWAR SP

If those things were true, in particular with Wetherholt and Doyle were still on the horizon, the entire conversation about what they should consider doing would be different.

You say the conversation would be different if these three develop. Since they are still on the team I’d think they think they will bloom. Isn’t that changing the conversation still.

If the Cardinals can salvage anything from Walker and Gorman, that will certainly change the outlook for the team going forward.

Great response- there is hope. I think Libby will give you a two War, and Walker and Gorman a two War plus. Still a tad short but progress.

[casey1024]

The incompetence of this ownership is very scary

2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.

The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.

But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.

And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.

Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.

You call finishing 4 games over .500 and 10 games out first competing?

With all due respect....the poster clearly stated that the demise of Goldy and Nolan were unexpected. There is little doubt to me that if those two had performed close to their past....they would have been right there. If anyone claims they could have foresaw that....they are not being truthful. Don't you agree?

[mattmitchl44]

The incompetence of this ownership is very scary

2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.

The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.

But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.

And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.

Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.

You call finishing 4 games over .500 and 10 games out first competing?

With all due respect....the poster clearly stated that the demise of Goldy and Nolan were unexpected. There is little doubt to me that if those two had performed close to their past....they would have been right there. If anyone claims they could have foresaw that....they are not being truthful. Don't you agree?

Taking out their anomalous 2022 seasons:

Arenado

2021 - 4.3 fWAR

2023 - 2.7 fWAR
2024 - 3.2 fWAR (age 33)
2025 - 0.9 fWAR

Goldschmidt

2021 - 4.8 fWAR

2023 - 3.4 fWAR
2024 - 1.2 fWAR (but he was age 36, so a more precipitous drop off is not that surprising)
2025 - 0.8 fWAR

So, yeah, their 2024 seasons were not that unexpected.

Father Time got the upper hand on Goldschmidt and Arenado in their mid-30s, just like he does for most MLB players.

[sikeston bulldog2]

The incompetence of this ownership is very scary

2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.

The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.

But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.

And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.

Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.

You call finishing 4 games over .500 and 10 games out first competing?

With all due respect....the poster clearly stated that the demise of Goldy and Nolan were unexpected. There is little doubt to me that if those two had performed close to their past....they would have been right there. If anyone claims they could have foresaw that....they are not being truthful. Don't you agree?

Taking out their anomalous 2022 seasons:

Arenado

2021 - 4.3 fWAR

2023 - 2.7 fWAR
2024 - 3.2 fWAR (age 33)
2025 - 0.9 fWAR

Goldschmidt

2021 - 4.8 fWAR

2023 - 3.4 fWAR
2024 - 1.2 fWAR (but he was age 36, so a more precipitous drop off is not that surprising)
2025 - 0.8 fWAR

So, yeah, their 2024 seasons were not that unexpected.

It appears 2024 was a season where Peter- Nado robbed Paul. Meaning Nado stats were good and Paul fell. Created an off balanced offense. We started to wobble.