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Wattage wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:33 pm

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:00 pm Among qualified CF's last year Leody Tavaras came in last at .641 OPS.

Siani = .570


It's a joke.

Horrible bat, better than VS in 2024.
They can't be that level bad and get starters time nor
should both be on the roster it that's who they are in 2025.

This year he is a place holder until we think victor scott is ready cuz we wrent really trying to win. Last year considering we were still in playoff race most the year, its embarrassing we kept siani as starter as long as we did instead of making a move.

Wattage wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:23 pm Are people really fussing about the first spring training game lineup as if that dictates or is indicative of what the mlb roster or lineup will be. No name minor leaguers get spring reps all the time. Everyone will get reos. Dont read anything into early spring lineups anyways

kscardsfan wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:29 pm

AnExParrot wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 13:18 pm

kscardsfan wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 10:14 am Most Card fans have forgotten what a great CF looks like. They thought Bader was it. Wasn't a great outfielder. Saw some great catches. But saw him too often turn and run back to get the ball that he dove and wiffed on. But hey he had made sportscenter for the good ones. Had speed. Wasn't a base stealer. Had to be on base to steal. Couldn't hit a lick. Now they drool over Siani. Defense seems to be all that they think you need.. How many years since we had a bonafide major league outfield? 2013.... 2013. Twelve years of a rebuild out there where you need production. Wasted years.

Couldn't hit a lick?

The three seasons Bader played at least 100 games with the Cardinals, he was an above average bat - 6, 14, and 14% above league average by OPS+ and 7, 14 and 8% above average by wRC+. While that isn't an all-star, it isn't "couldn't hit a lick" either.

And literally no one is drooling over Siani. On the other hand, plenty of people in this very thread(and many others) have called him a 5th OF or nothing more than a defensive replacement for late innings.

He was not then and will never be a good hitter. He's not a base stealer. he doesn't hit for much power. He is a .245 hitter that plays at times great defense and at times makes stupid decisions trying for that highlight reel. Can't lay off down and away. But he is an above average hitter. Seeing as how your stats tell you he is an above avg hitter, why isn't he a starter somewhere? There is a reason he has played for 4 teams in 4 years. He can't hit a lick. Hint for you, neither can Siani. Stick to your stats that tell you he is an above average stats. I will stick to my eyes and pull for the Cards to go get some MLB caliber outfielders someday. Been since 2013.

AnExParrot wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:58 pm

kscardsfan wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:29 pm

AnExParrot wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 13:18 pm

kscardsfan wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 10:14 am Most Card fans have forgotten what a great CF looks like. They thought Bader was it. Wasn't a great outfielder. Saw some great catches. But saw him too often turn and run back to get the ball that he dove and wiffed on. But hey he had made sportscenter for the good ones. Had speed. Wasn't a base stealer. Had to be on base to steal. Couldn't hit a lick. Now they drool over Siani. Defense seems to be all that they think you need.. How many years since we had a bonafide major league outfield? 2013.... 2013. Twelve years of a rebuild out there where you need production. Wasted years.

Couldn't hit a lick?

The three seasons Bader played at least 100 games with the Cardinals, he was an above average bat - 6, 14, and 14% above league average by OPS+ and 7, 14 and 8% above average by wRC+. While that isn't an all-star, it isn't "couldn't hit a lick" either.

And literally no one is drooling over Siani. On the other hand, plenty of people in this very thread(and many others) have called him a 5th OF or nothing more than a defensive replacement for late innings.

He was not then and will never be a good hitter. He's not a base stealer. he doesn't hit for much power. He is a .245 hitter that plays at times great defense and at times makes stupid decisions trying for that highlight reel. Can't lay off down and away. But he is an above average hitter. Seeing as how your stats tell you he is an above avg hitter, why isn't he a starter somewhere? There is a reason he has played for 4 teams in 4 years. He can't hit a lick. Hint for you, neither can Siani. Stick to your stats that tell you he is an above average stats. I will stick to my eyes and pull for the Cards to go get some MLB caliber outfielders someday. Been since 2013.

And yet, he managed to hit for above league average every time he played more than 100 games for the Cardinals. It's a fact, but I get it, numbers are skeery.

Not sure why you repeated all that other [shirt], did I bring it up?

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 10:28 am Pitching staffs tend to like elite defense in CF.
And elite defensive CF's tend to play as a result.
Remember Gary Pettis?
Played 13 years in MLB - 8 as a starter.
Career .236 BA.
Never more than 56 RBI in a season.
Scored 93 one year and 77 another - and never had more than 67 in any other season.
Never hit more than 5 HR in a season.
Incredibly, reach 20 doubles in a season just one time.
But, he did win 5 Gold Gloves in 6 years - routinely rating 15-20 runs better with the glove than league average.
And that kept him on the field.

TXCardsFanX wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 22:09 pm June, July, August - 0.295/0.324/0.371/0.695
That's with GG Def in CF. That's the key.
He's a table-setter who has speed on the base paths. He's not as big of a bat Burly or Noot (although those guys aren't exactly stars either).

To be fair, I'm not super high on Siani. But, he's got talent and potential. Probably won't pan out, but he's here.

CraigPaquette wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:55 pm It's comical how people like to point out Siani's offensive deficits but you had an entire offense from last year that was largely inept. At least Siani brings consistent high level defense. As a fan I'd be more worried about our "proven" offensive core than Siani.

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 09:33 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

blackinkbiz wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:20 am Well the attraction is elite defense, but I agree, I'd much rather see him as a late-inning CF replacement.

However:

-he is young and did start to show some improvement at the plate last year
-excellent base stealing threat

...and currently, considering Noot has never played a full season due to injuries, I don't mind giving Siani a lot of reps, especially in the early days of ST.

Def need to see more of what VSIII can do, though.

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 10:28 am

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 09:33 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).