What is the attraction to Siani?

[renostl]

Among qualified CF's last year Leody Tavaras came in last at .641 OPS.

Siani = .570


It's a joke.

Horrible bat, better than VS in 2024.
They can't be that level bad and get starters time nor
should both be on the roster it that's who they are in 2025.

This year he is a place holder until we think victor scott is ready cuz we wrent really trying to win. Last year considering we were still in playoff race most the year, its embarrassing we kept siani as starter as long as we did instead of making a move.

An unseen player in Helman in CF has more intrigue than Siani.

It's the opposite of the bird in the hand, take what's in the bush

[Youboughtit]

Are people really fussing about the first spring training game lineup as if that dictates or is indicative of what the mlb roster or lineup will be. No name minor leaguers get spring reps all the time. Everyone will get reos. Dont read anything into early spring lineups anyways

No. What was said on radio during the game. Burelson will split starts with Contreras and Siani will split with Scott. NO MENTION OF NOOT IN CENTER. The rest of the order is basically set. Gorman at DH. He is also LH so reading between the lines Burelson is going to sit.

[CraigPaquette]

It's comical how people like to point out Siani's offensive deficits but you had an entire offense from last year that was largely inept. At least Siani brings consistent high level defense. As a fan I'd be more worried about our "proven" offensive core than Siani.

[AnExParrot]

Most Card fans have forgotten what a great CF looks like. They thought Bader was it. Wasn't a great outfielder. Saw some great catches. But saw him too often turn and run back to get the ball that he dove and wiffed on. But hey he had made sportscenter for the good ones. Had speed. Wasn't a base stealer. Had to be on base to steal. Couldn't hit a lick. Now they drool over Siani. Defense seems to be all that they think you need.. How many years since we had a bonafide major league outfield? 2013.... 2013. Twelve years of a rebuild out there where you need production. Wasted years.

Couldn't hit a lick?

The three seasons Bader played at least 100 games with the Cardinals, he was an above average bat - 6, 14, and 14% above league average by OPS+ and 7, 14 and 8% above average by wRC+. While that isn't an all-star, it isn't "couldn't hit a lick" either.

And literally no one is drooling over Siani. On the other hand, plenty of people in this very thread(and many others) have called him a 5th OF or nothing more than a defensive replacement for late innings.

He was not then and will never be a good hitter. He's not a base stealer. he doesn't hit for much power. He is a .245 hitter that plays at times great defense and at times makes stupid decisions trying for that highlight reel. Can't lay off down and away. But he is an above average hitter. Seeing as how your stats tell you he is an above avg hitter, why isn't he a starter somewhere? There is a reason he has played for 4 teams in 4 years. He can't hit a lick. Hint for you, neither can Siani. Stick to your stats that tell you he is an above average stats. I will stick to my eyes and pull for the Cards to go get some MLB caliber outfielders someday. Been since 2013.

And yet, he managed to hit for above league average every time he played more than 100 games for the Cardinals. It's a fact, but I get it, numbers are skeery.

Not sure why you repeated all that other [shirt], did I bring it up?

[kscardsfan]

Most Card fans have forgotten what a great CF looks like. They thought Bader was it. Wasn't a great outfielder. Saw some great catches. But saw him too often turn and run back to get the ball that he dove and wiffed on. But hey he had made sportscenter for the good ones. Had speed. Wasn't a base stealer. Had to be on base to steal. Couldn't hit a lick. Now they drool over Siani. Defense seems to be all that they think you need.. How many years since we had a bonafide major league outfield? 2013.... 2013. Twelve years of a rebuild out there where you need production. Wasted years.

Couldn't hit a lick?

The three seasons Bader played at least 100 games with the Cardinals, he was an above average bat - 6, 14, and 14% above league average by OPS+ and 7, 14 and 8% above average by wRC+. While that isn't an all-star, it isn't "couldn't hit a lick" either.

And literally no one is drooling over Siani. On the other hand, plenty of people in this very thread(and many others) have called him a 5th OF or nothing more than a defensive replacement for late innings.

He was not then and will never be a good hitter. He's not a base stealer. he doesn't hit for much power. He is a .245 hitter that plays at times great defense and at times makes stupid decisions trying for that highlight reel. Can't lay off down and away. But he is an above average hitter. Seeing as how your stats tell you he is an above avg hitter, why isn't he a starter somewhere? There is a reason he has played for 4 teams in 4 years. He can't hit a lick. Hint for you, neither can Siani. Stick to your stats that tell you he is an above average stats. I will stick to my eyes and pull for the Cards to go get some MLB caliber outfielders someday. Been since 2013.

And yet, he managed to hit for above league average every time he played more than 100 games for the Cardinals. It's a fact, but I get it, numbers are skeery.

Not sure why you repeated all that other [shirt], did I bring it up?

Lets look at his OF rankings in his above average Years: Those with over 300 AB's.

2018 --Hits 100 -#67, 2B 20- #58, 3B 2 - #58, HR 12- #65, RBI 37- #80, SB 15 - # 19, BB 31- #75, SO way to many
2019 --Hits 71- #92, 2B 14- #97, 3B 3 - #25, HR 12- #74, RBI 39-# 87, SB 11 - #30, BB 46- #36, SO a bunch\
2021 --Hits 98- #56, 2B 21- #48, 3B 1 - #81, HR 16 - #46, RBI 50- # 55, SB 9 - # 37, BB 27- #87 , SO awful

Considering their are 3 OF per team x 30 = 90 Starting OF Spots. Half is 45. Average. To put you in the top half of 90 Outfielders (above avg) you would need a rank below 45. Those are actual numbers. Missed games come into play. Staying healthy counts. But those are the numbers. He isn't in the top 45 except for 5 times. I don't see your above average .

[TXCardsFanX]

June, July, August - 0.295/0.324/0.371/0.695
That's with GG Def in CF. That's the key.
He's a table-setter who has speed on the base paths. He's not as big of a bat Burly or Noot (although those guys aren't exactly stars either).

To be fair, I'm not super high on Siani. But, he's got talent and potential. Probably won't pan out, but he's here.

[icon]

Pitching staffs tend to like elite defense in CF.
And elite defensive CF's tend to play as a result.
Remember Gary Pettis?
Played 13 years in MLB - 8 as a starter.
Career .236 BA.
Never more than 56 RBI in a season.
Scored 93 one year and 77 another - and never had more than 67 in any other season.
Never hit more than 5 HR in a season.
Incredibly, reach 20 doubles in a season just one time.
But, he did win 5 Gold Gloves in 6 years - routinely rating 15-20 runs better with the glove than league average.
And that kept him on the field.

No, I don't remember Gary Pettis. He's quite forgettable apparently.

[Melville]

June, July, August - 0.295/0.324/0.371/0.695
That's with GG Def in CF. That's the key.
He's a table-setter who has speed on the base paths. He's not as big of a bat Burly or Noot (although those guys aren't exactly stars either).

To be fair, I'm not super high on Siani. But, he's got talent and potential. Probably won't pan out, but he's here.

Whether folks like it or not, as you point out "he's here" and is the best option until Scott or someone else proves otherwise.
That is not an endorsement.
It is, however, reality.

[Wattage]

It's comical how people like to point out Siani's offensive deficits but you had an entire offense from last year that was largely inept. At least Siani brings consistent high level defense. As a fan I'd be more worried about our "proven" offensive core than Siani.

Siani was a major reason. Ithers may disappoint but jt doesnt help when you have a guy who literally hits like a litcher when wvery ither team no lonfer has a pitcher in their ljneup.

Theres a big difference between .700 ops and .570

Siani was the worst hitting starting position players in baseball last year by a landslide. Technicallynhe was never supposed to start and we underestimated the timeline of edmans injury and how bad carlson would be but siani was bad.

Most of our other hitters were around league average butnwith no elite hitters.

The fact we are missing a prim goldy or arenado slhgger from our lineup is more of a reaspn we cant have an absolute black hole in our lineup. Not an excuse that hustifies him. It means that we literally dont have a good enough lineup to compensate for such a black hole to come up on the offchance we have a rally going.

[rockondlouie]

Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

[Melville]

Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

[rockondlouie]

Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).

[Carp4Cy]

Well the attraction is elite defense, but I agree, I'd much rather see him as a late-inning CF replacement.

However:

-he is young and did start to show some improvement at the plate last year
-excellent base stealing threat

...and currently, considering Noot has never played a full season due to injuries, I don't mind giving Siani a lot of reps, especially in the early days of ST.

Def need to see more of what VSIII can do, though.

He’s not that young, about to turn 26. At least 3 years older than Walker and Winn. At his age he pretty much is what he’s going to be. He wasn’t rushed thru the minors, He’s not going to suddenly turn into Randy Arozarena.

[RogerGrace]

The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

[BrockFloodMaris]

The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

[Melville]

Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).

If 2025 even remotely mirrors 2024 from the perspective of player performance, Pages must start over Herrera at C and Siani must start over Mootbaar in CF.
That is the correct baseball decision for those 2 positions.
That is not necessarily and endorsement of Pages or Siani but is rather a reflection of the current status of the roster.
Frankly, neither decision is in any way a close call.
Now, performance could change - players can progress or retreat - but that is the current reality.