STLtoday.com

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

Well said!
And the key word with those teams has been “organization” as in developing prospects.
Cleveland and Tampa always seem to develop and promote pitchers.
Milwaukee....and I hate to admit it....has been solid in player development also.
The Cards unfortunately recently have not been as strong in that area.
Hopefully that is turning around with the likes of Winn, Herrera, McGreevy, and others fast approaching(JJ, etc).

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Whether it is hope, or not, doesn't really matter at this point. They should be taking the same actions as they are in either case.

I don't have to diagnose what will, or will not, happen in the future (and could not with certainty either way).

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

My point has been how long is too long? And how many of those proposing such a philosophy for this franchise believes a fan base will wait until apathy sets in?

This is not a one or two year fix.

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:09 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:15 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:09 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7

Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8

TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1

If Cleveland could “afford” 97mil on HALF of STL attendance…. Then there is no reason STL payroll should’ve ever been below180mil. Stop making excuses for POOR Ownership management.

Matt/someone/anyone

Square this up for me. We must lower our standard to clubs with no attendance, half attendance, and significantly less attendance than the St. Cardinals…..Because???

It's not about "lowering standards." It's about raising the standard of expectation for the player development system to match that achieved by Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Tampa Bay.

And it's about recognizing that, with where the team currently finds itself with regard to young talent, the topic of spending or not spending in 2026 is moot - they aren't in a position to compete right now even if they spent up to $170, $180 million.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Let’s just we don’t know.

But if they WERE to spend again, they would still be doing exactly what they are doing right now.

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

*sigh*

I have said - repeatedly - that they will eventually need to spend again at the $170+ million level, after they have rebuilt the player development system and have a necessary critical mass of young, cost controlled players on the ML team.

As noted in the OP:

if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%,

Spending at that level is just moot for 2026.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

Do their attendance, next!

The 2025 Brewers had the most wins in all of baseball (97), but only drew 2,650,089. This from a team that averaged 88 Wins over the last decade and made the playoffs 7x!?

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:24 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

Do their attendance, next!

The 2025 Brewers had the most wins in all of baseball (97), but only drew 2,650,089. This from a team that averaged 88 Wins over the last decade and made the playoffs 7x!?

Scroll up

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

+1

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:46 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:43 pm

AnExParrot wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:36 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:09 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7

Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8

TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1

And before this ownership "killed this team" you were here irrationally (bleep) and moaning every season that the thing you just full-throatedly championed simply wasn't good enough. 2012 to 2015 the team won 375 regular season games, lost in the NLCS, lost in the WS, lost in the NLCS, and lost in the NLDS and the whole time you were here whining about how it wasn't enough.

Get a different shtick, this one looks especially bad on you.

That’s really interesting….you clowns chime in and you sound really good….like you have a legit point….like you’re defender from the trolls and actually remember what others type
Clown…….I didn’t login to CT until 2019. Wow….there goes that thesis
Good try though

So you don’t look the fool next time….. Click on the posters handle. It indicates when user originated

Yeah, because you didn't have a different user name like many others here. You think that's some kind of dead-set lock as to when a person joined the forum, and I look the fool? (bleep), that's especially dumb.

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 19:56 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 20:56 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 19:56 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

You’re so weird sometimes

How can you forget that I was on here last year clamoring for them to offer whatever it took for Juan Soto?

And now I suddenly “admire” the team going to a low payroll model?

Good grief, man.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 21:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 20:56 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 19:56 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

You’re so weird sometimes

How can you forget that I was on here last year clamoring for them to offer whatever it took for Juan Soto?

And now I suddenly “admire” the team going to a low payroll model?

Good grief, man.

Apologies

I did ask to the community today what the Bosox have left to offer for Donny
And Woo just posted that BLoom and Bosox are talking about Donny
Pure comedy

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 20:56 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 19:56 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:18 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:11 pm

TopofthePerch wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 18:00 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:54 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:42 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 17:10 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 16:00 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:48 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:44 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Why is it so, so, so hard for you to understand a simple concept:

- Emulate what Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay do with their player development systems, but then improve on that by being able to spend more on the ML payroll than they can.

To compete consistently, the Cardinals absolutely need to have a Top 5 player development system, and they will need for it to have had some "bite" at the ML level - delivering Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. for a couple of seasons - before they are ready to compete again.

Only AFTER that has happened do we even need to start worrying about exactly what new ML payroll level the team will settle out at in 2028, 2029, etc. But I fully expect that level to be considerably higher than Cleveland's $100 million from 2025, or Milwaukee's $108 million.