mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7
Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8
TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1
And before this ownership "killed this team" you were here irrationally (bleep) and moaning every season that the thing you just full-throatedly championed simply wasn't good enough. 2012 to 2015 the team won 375 regular season games, lost in the NLCS, lost in the WS, lost in the NLCS, and lost in the NLDS and the whole time you were here whining about how it wasn't enough.
Get a different shtick, this one looks especially bad on you.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7
Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8
TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1
And before this ownership "killed this team" you were here irrationally (bleep) and moaning every season that the thing you just full-throatedly championed simply wasn't good enough. 2012 to 2015 the team won 375 regular season games, lost in the NLCS, lost in the WS, lost in the NLCS, and lost in the NLDS and the whole time you were here whining about how it wasn't enough.
Get a different shtick, this one looks especially bad on you.
That’s really interesting….you clowns chime in and you sound really good….like you have a legit point….like you’re defender from the trolls and actually remember what others type
Clown…….I didn’t login to CT until 2019. Wow….there goes that thesis
Good try though
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7
Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8
TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1
And before this ownership "killed this team" you were here irrationally (bleep) and moaning every season that the thing you just full-throatedly championed simply wasn't good enough. 2012 to 2015 the team won 375 regular season games, lost in the NLCS, lost in the WS, lost in the NLCS, and lost in the NLDS and the whole time you were here whining about how it wasn't enough.
Get a different shtick, this one looks especially bad on you.
That’s really interesting….you clowns chime in and you sound really good….like you have a legit point….like you’re defender from the trolls and actually remember what others type
Clown…….I didn’t login to CT until 2019. Wow….there goes that thesis
Good try though
So you don’t look the fool next time….. Click on the posters handle. It indicates when user originated
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I thought playoffs weren't good enough...WS or bust.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
Those teams seem to have better managers than the Cards last 2-3. And yet we are hearing extension rumors for Oli.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
If that's the new normal - tank for 6 of 10 years to try to save up enough prospects and spending capital to have a "chance" for 3 or 4 of those years and still not make it like MIL and TB, I'd rather BDW just pack it in and sell to a more aggressive owner. This is a historical franchise. Its not like there aren't opportunities out there for someone else to do a lot more with it.
We have to be in the top 3rd of payroll to truly complete and if Bill won't get there and instead insists on getting even further from it than he's been the past decade, then baseball has passed him by.
TraveledLessRoad wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:46 pm
Also, factor in the fact that we play in a Division that is significantly weaker than Cle and Tampa...to support your point even further
More horse chit. Our division is stronger than Cleveland's.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.
I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.
I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.
Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility
Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I have to be honest. I really don't understand why anyone hates this strategy. Do they live in an alternate reality that had us signing big name free agents, which has never happened? I don't remember anyone enjoying overspending on mid tier talent which is also going up. I appreciate the logical post but I would rather bash my head against the wall than argue with most on this forum.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.
I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.
Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility
Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.
It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
Stop with this. The Cardinals have WON 11 WS and were drawing 3.2-3.5 mill fans each season BEFORE this Ownership/FO killed this team. You demean yourself and Cardinals fans who have poured $$ into this owners pockets the last 25yrs to now compare us to Tampa PHuckingBay because the OWNER and A COMPLETE FOOL methodically destroyed the team and fanbase.
Attendance #’s for our “PEERS”
Cleveland
2mil
2
1.8
1.3
1.1
1.7
Mil
2.6mil
2.5
2.4
1.8
2.9
2.8
TB
786,000
1.3
1.4
1.1
761,000
1.2
1.1
If Cleveland could “afford” 97mil on HALF of STL attendance…. Then there is no reason STL payroll should’ve ever been below180mil. Stop making excuses for POOR Ownership management.
Matt/someone/anyone
Square this up for me. We must lower our standard to clubs with no attendance, half attendance, and significantly less attendance than the St. Cardinals…..Because???
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2025 15:41 pm
from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:
Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.
Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.
The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.
So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.
I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?
The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.
I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.
IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.
I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.
I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.
Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility
Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.
It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.
I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.
