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Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:09 am Didn't give him time to develop.

He's a one trick pony, never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter.

You don’t develop secondary pitches in the bullpen you rely on your best pitches. You develop your secondary pitches by starting in the minors and working on them he was rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen for four years so he was never able to develop those pitches

You do realize he wasn't drafted as a reliever and that he was a starter who made 31 minor league starts over two minor league seasons (not rushed), right?

He didn't have the necessary secondary pitches to be successful in MLB and thus was converted (like many) into a RP.

He never had the secondary pitch quality to become a good major league starter, proven out by his terrible career 4.91 ERA when starting.

One trick pony, not a major league caliber starter.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:10 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

The time to develop those is the time that they skipped. Trying to develop secondaries in the majors is extremely difficult as the margin for error is so slim.

His outcome as a starter would have had a greater likelihood of success had they let him build and develop at AA and AAA as a starter.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:28 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:10 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

The time to develop those is the time that they skipped. Trying to develop secondaries in the majors is extremely difficult as the margin for error is so slim.

His outcome as a starter would have had a greater likelihood of success had they let him build and develop at AA and AAA as a starter.

Ok I’ll grant that the likelihood of starter success would have been greater had they left him to develop.

But likelihood doesn’t mean certainty. It’s possible he may never have made it to the bigs had he remained a starter.

He also didn’t help his development by choosing to sit out 2020.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:51 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

He wa a 7 year veteran last year.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 18:30 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.

Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.

He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.

His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA

Then what happened?

Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?

So...did he have a second pitch or not?

He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

He may not be, but that isn’t the issue.

Why the [fork] would he develop secondary pitches when he wouldn’t be asked to throw them? A hobby?

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:12 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 18:30 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

He may not be, but that isn’t the issue.

Why the [fork] would he develop secondary pitches when he wouldn’t be asked to throw them? A hobby?

What exactly is the issue?

Hicks has said he wants to start. Hicks knows or should know that starting requires more than 2 pitches.

Hicks has had opportunities to start and signed a nice FA contract to be a starter.

Hicks is in his 7th year.

At what point is it up to Hicks to learn/develop new pitches?

I say he’s just not that good.

But I don’t feel too sorry for him, by end of this season he will have pocketed $ 22 million for his career. Also
I’m glad we’re not on the hook for the next 2 years of his deal.

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:32 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:12 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 18:30 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

He may not be, but that isn’t the issue.

Why the [fork] would he develop secondary pitches when he wouldn’t be asked to throw them? A hobby?

What exactly is the issue?

Hicks has said he wants to start. Hicks knows or should know that starting requires more than 2 pitches.

Hicks has had opportunities to start and signed a nice FA contract to be a starter.

Hicks is in his 7th year.

At what point is it up to Hicks to learn/develop new pitches?

I say he’s just not that good.

But I don’t feel too sorry for him, by end of this season he will have pocketed $ 22 million for his career. Also
I’m glad we’re not on the hook for the next 2 years of his deal.

My point is that Hicks development was interrupted by the Cardinals immediate needs. Could he have been a good starter? Maybe, maybe not… shoveling him straight from A ball to the majors disrupted the process. Unless your name is Paul Skenes, pitchers need years to refine their offspeed pitches in the minors to become effective starters - especially when drafted out of HS like Hicks. The notion that he should have spent his free time developing secondary pitches, that he would not need as a reliever, or “experiment” with them in major league action is basically nonsense. He was a casualty of the Cardinals wreckage of a minor league system.

If Rock wants to pat himself on the back with an “I told you so”, that’s great… he needs that, particularly after spending years stomping his feet demanding that Liberatore could never be anything but a reliever.

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:32 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:12 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 18:30 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

He may not be, but that isn’t the issue.

Why the [fork] would he develop secondary pitches when he wouldn’t be asked to throw them? A hobby?

What exactly is the issue?

Hicks has said he wants to start. Hicks knows or should know that starting requires more than 2 pitches.

Hicks has had opportunities to start and signed a nice FA contract to be a starter.

Hicks is in his 7th year.

At what point is it up to Hicks to learn/develop new pitches?

I say he’s just not that good.

But I don’t feel too sorry for him, by end of this season he will have pocketed $ 22 million for his career. Also
I’m glad we’re not on the hook for the next 2 years of his deal.

My point is that Hicks development was interrupted by the Cardinals immediate needs. Could he have been a good starter? Maybe, maybe not… shoveling him straight from A ball to the majors disrupted the process. Unless your name is Paul Skenes, pitchers need years to refine their offspeed pitches in the minors to become effective starters - especially when drafted out of HS like Hicks. The notion that he should have spent his free time developing secondary pitches, that he would not need as a reliever, or “experiment” with them in major league action is basically nonsense. He was a casualty of the Cardinals wreckage of a minor league system.

If Rock wants to pat himself on the back with an “I told you so”, that’s great… he needs that, particularly after spending years stomping his feet demanding that Liberatore could never be anything but a reliever.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 20:29 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:32 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 19:12 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 18:30 pm

Bomber1 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 16:01 pm

Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.

JMO but -

Hicks has had plenty of time to develop and/or refine secondary pitches.

He’s just not that good.

He may not be, but that isn’t the issue.

Why the [fork] would he develop secondary pitches when he wouldn’t be asked to throw them? A hobby?

What exactly is the issue?

Hicks has said he wants to start. Hicks knows or should know that starting requires more than 2 pitches.

Hicks has had opportunities to start and signed a nice FA contract to be a starter.

Hicks is in his 7th year.

At what point is it up to Hicks to learn/develop new pitches?

I say he’s just not that good.

But I don’t feel too sorry for him, by end of this season he will have pocketed $ 22 million for his career. Also
I’m glad we’re not on the hook for the next 2 years of his deal.

My point is that Hicks development was interrupted by the Cardinals immediate needs. Could he have been a good starter? Maybe, maybe not… shoveling him straight from A ball to the majors disrupted the process. Unless your name is Paul Skenes, pitchers need years to refine their offspeed pitches in the minors to become effective starters - especially when drafted out of HS like Hicks. The notion that he should have spent his free time developing secondary pitches, that he would not need as a reliever, or “experiment” with them in major league action is basically nonsense. He was a casualty of the Cardinals wreckage of a minor league system.

If Rock wants to pat himself on the back with an “I told you so”, that’s great… he needs that, particularly after spending years stomping his feet demanding that Liberatore could never be anything but a reliever.

lol no kidding. And also can’t trade helsley the team will blow too many saves. But his logic is well he started at A ball so no difference between that and starting in the major leagues four years later