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thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

I would say the Ozuna trade was bad.

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

That isn’t what you took a shot at. You implied that you disagreed that there were developmental missteps with Liberatore.

Want to try again?

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

What on earth does any of that have to do with not jerking around SP prospects between the rotation and bullpen?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:40 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

I would say the Ozuna trade was bad.

We didn't trade Ozuna we traded for Ozuna. We shouldn't have traded Lance Johnson. Reggie Smith trade in 1976 was forced. He didn't have monster seasons.

3dender wrote: ↑25 May 2025 10:11 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

What on earth does any of that have to do with not jerking around SP prospects between the rotation and bullpen?

What team hasn't done this? It works. Someone has to pitch in the BP.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:41 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

That isn’t what you took a shot at. You implied that you disagreed that there were developmental missteps with Liberatore.

Want to try again?

The missteps were so bad that we have control of him for 4-5 more years? It's baseball. He could blow out his elbow in the near future and you could claim he was mismanaged. It's baseball.

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 11:22 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:41 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

That isn’t what you took a shot at. You implied that you disagreed that there were developmental missteps with Liberatore.

Want to try again?

The missteps were so bad that we have control of him for 4-5 more years? It's baseball. He could blow out his elbow in the near future and you could claim he was mismanaged. It's baseball.

This is a special kind of idiotic. Your position is that it doesn’t matter how pitchers are handled cause they could get hurt.

My god.

You should never criticize anyone’s opinion here, or in real life, ever again. That’s free advice.

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 11:18 am

3dender wrote: ↑25 May 2025 10:11 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

What on earth does any of that have to do with not jerking around SP prospects between the rotation and bullpen?

What team hasn't done this? It works. Someone has to pitch in the BP.

Go back to shining Dewitt's shoes.

Idiot.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 11:24 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 11:22 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:41 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:32 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:35 am

thetank2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:06 am

3dender wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:44 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑24 May 2025 23:39 pm He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.

That isn’t what you took a shot at. You implied that you disagreed that there were developmental missteps with Liberatore.

Want to try again?

The missteps were so bad that we have control of him for 4-5 more years? It's baseball. He could blow out his elbow in the near future and you could claim he was mismanaged. It's baseball.

This is a special kind of idiotic. Your position is that it doesn’t matter how pitchers are handled cause they could get hurt.

My god.

You should never criticize anyone’s opinion here, or in real life, ever again. That’s free advice.

The only thing he ever criticizes front office for is he thinks mo is an idiot for hiring bloom to replace him

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 08:27 am Who cares about trade equality. Doesn’t matter. You stuck with what you get. What’s important is the result we now enjoy.

I care sikes, I care...and I now enjoy

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

ecleme has been pretty insistent the last few years that he wasn’t mishandled… that this narrative was just making excuses for his inconsistent performance, so this “maturity” thing is just his hedge against having to acknowledge that his prior position was pretty far off base.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:34 pm

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

ecleme has been pretty insistent the last few years that he wasn’t mishandled… that this narrative was just making excuses for his inconsistent performance, so this “maturity” thing is just his hedge against having to acknowledge that his prior position was pretty far off base.

That’s not true. I’ve acknowledged how he was mishandled in May, ‘23, but also noted that he IS getting opportunities and eventually he needs to take advantage of them.

Was Pallante promised three months of starts last year? No. Yet he was given a tryout in late May and succeeded.

You have used Randy Johnson countless times with Libby as an example of how talent can struggle early on and needs to mature. You no longer feel this?

Come on…

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 May 2025 07:35 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:34 pm

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

ecleme has been pretty insistent the last few years that he wasn’t mishandled… that this narrative was just making excuses for his inconsistent performance, so this “maturity” thing is just his hedge against having to acknowledge that his prior position was pretty far off base.

That’s not true. I’ve acknowledged how he was mishandled in May, ‘23, but also noted that he IS getting opportunities and eventually he needs to take advantage of them.

Was Pallante promised three months of starts last year? No. Yet he was given a tryout in late May and succeeded.

You have used Randy Johnson countless times with Libby as an example of how talent can struggle early on and needs to mature. You no longer feel this?

Come on…

Not doing this.

I referenced a bunch of pitchers who ended up being Hall of Famers that took awhile to gain traction.

THEN, you claimed that I comped Liberatore to Johnson… I had not.

Others have also referenced Johnson in conversation throughout the years.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 May 2025 07:41 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 May 2025 07:35 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:34 pm

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

ecleme has been pretty insistent the last few years that he wasn’t mishandled… that this narrative was just making excuses for his inconsistent performance, so this “maturity” thing is just his hedge against having to acknowledge that his prior position was pretty far off base.

That’s not true. I’ve acknowledged how he was mishandled in May, ‘23, but also noted that he IS getting opportunities and eventually he needs to take advantage of them.

Was Pallante promised three months of starts last year? No. Yet he was given a tryout in late May and succeeded.

You have used Randy Johnson countless times with Libby as an example of how talent can struggle early on and needs to mature. You no longer feel this?

Come on…

Not doing this.

I referenced a bunch of pitchers who ended up being Hall of Famers that took awhile to gain traction.

THEN, you claimed that I comped Liberatore to Johnson… I had not.

Others have also referenced Johnson in conversation throughout the years.

You can find player examples for any opinion you want. Claiming he was mishandled when he is now thriving?
Maybe he needed to go through that.

thetank2 wrote: ↑26 May 2025 08:18 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 May 2025 07:41 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 May 2025 07:35 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:34 pm

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑25 May 2025 20:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑25 May 2025 09:08 amI definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

Yea, there's no guarantee that he would be pitching like this earlier had they handled him better, but they definitely mishandled him, and I'm guessing it didn't help.

But regardless, he's pitching like I think everyone hoped he would now and that's all I care about.

ecleme has been pretty insistent the last few years that he wasn’t mishandled… that this narrative was just making excuses for his inconsistent performance, so this “maturity” thing is just his hedge against having to acknowledge that his prior position was pretty far off base.

That’s not true. I’ve acknowledged how he was mishandled in May, ‘23, but also noted that he IS getting opportunities and eventually he needs to take advantage of them.

Was Pallante promised three months of starts last year? No. Yet he was given a tryout in late May and succeeded.

You have used Randy Johnson countless times with Libby as an example of how talent can struggle early on and needs to mature. You no longer feel this?

Come on…

Not doing this.

I referenced a bunch of pitchers who ended up being Hall of Famers that took awhile to gain traction.

THEN, you claimed that I comped Liberatore to Johnson… I had not.

Others have also referenced Johnson in conversation throughout the years.

You can find player examples for any opinion you want. Claiming he was mishandled when he is now thriving?
Maybe he needed to go through that.

OK, so to be clear - are you also then disagreeing with the team's stated position that he was not setup to succeed?

I've said this numerous times throughout the years, that they needed to keep him on turn with a consistent routine. I've said numerous times that they were not setting him up to have success... a point that ecleme has contended repeatedly.

I just want to be sure that you're doing what it looks like, here... not only absolving the team of poor development tactics, but ALSO saying that the team's comments regarding Liberatore are off base.

Is that what you're doing? You have a problem being clear with what you mean.