Libby, maybe time to re-eval 'the trade' again

[imadangman]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

People act like Randy isn't keeping pace this year, I find that odd. He has a 1.7 bWAR and a OPS+ 126 or if you prefer wRC+ 130. I understand he's not a superstar, but he is a 150 game starter year after year. That's not easy to do in MLB.

With that said, if he can keep this pace going (Libby) it'll start to look A LOT better and that would be a very good thing.

What I worry about with Libby is him hitting an innings wall.

Spoken like someone who understands this campaign is very very long.

This is a valid concern. I believe that at some point it might be good to introduce McGreevy in his place and give Libby a breather.

I see McGreevy blowing Mikolas at some point this season.

[3dender]

I see McGreevy blowing Mikolas at some point this season.

I think you missed a word or two

[CorneliusWolfe]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

People act like Randy isn't keeping pace this year, I find that odd. He has a 1.7 bWAR and a OPS+ 126 or if you prefer wRC+ 130. I understand he's not a superstar, but he is a 150 game starter year after year. That's not easy to do in MLB.

With that said, if he can keep this pace going (Libby) it'll start to look A LOT better and that would be a very good thing.

What I worry about with Libby is him hitting an innings wall.

Spoken like someone who understands this campaign is very very long.

This is a valid concern. I believe that at some point it might be good to introduce McGreevy in his place and give Libby a breather.

Absolutely. Instead of turning him into the next Soroka or Strider, manage his innings with other pitchers, the one whom you named would be excellent, IMO.

Matz can help too. I was against Matz in the pen at first but after watching him fill an Andrew Miller-type role and excel, and considering his past health issues, I have to say it has been one of Marmol’s best moves. I’ve criticized him some so have to keep it fair on this one.

[ecleme22]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

Or Libby just matured.

We act like if Libby had a great starting chance in ‘22, he would’ve been great for the last four years.

Maybe he just needed to mature.

[An Old Friend]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

Or Libby just matured.

We act like if Libby had a great starting chance in ‘22, he would’ve been great for the last four years.

Maybe he just needed to mature.

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

It wasn’t going to be, ‘We’ll give you a couple of starts, see what it looks like.’ He needed to know that he could really sink his teeth into this opportunity, could really commit to what this progression looks like without feeling like he may need to be ready in a moment’s notice to go back to the bullpen if this doesn’t go well.
- Dusty Blake

Throughout the 2022 and 2023 seasons, Liberatore was optioned to the minors six times. By the time he made 10 major-league starts, he had acquired just 28 days of service time. He pitched in every role imaginable: spot starter, traditional reliever, long reliever, piggyback — you name it.

The numbers matched what you’d expect given the inconsistency.

There was a lot of uncertainty and not really knowing what my role was, or if I’d get another opportunity here,” Liberatore said.

“ It was hard, and looking back on it, I don’t wish that experience on anybody.”

”He has the mentality where he thinks every moment I’m either going to do something great, or I’m going to be better because I experienced it,” Blake said. “He’s certainly shown his stuff, velocity, command and mentality to be a starter. It’s hard to demonstrate that with the flex role he was in last year and with the limited experience he has up here. For a younger guy, I don’t know how many guys would excel in that role.”

Knowing the Cardinals are committed to him has allowed Liberatore to simply focus on pitching. No more stressing over whether one bad pitch would send him back to the minors. No more fretting over how he’d be used or if he’d ever reach his potential as a starting pitcher.

“I’m not fighting myself out there like I was in previous years,” Liberatore said. “I’m not living and dying with every pitch and what that means to the fate of my career.”

[3dender]

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

[Ozziesfan41]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

Or Libby just matured.

We act like if Libby had a great starting chance in ‘22, he would’ve been great for the last four years.

Maybe he just needed to mature.

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

It wasn’t going to be, ‘We’ll give you a couple of starts, see what it looks like.’ He needed to know that he could really sink his teeth into this opportunity, could really commit to what this progression looks like without feeling like he may need to be ready in a moment’s notice to go back to the bullpen if this doesn’t go well.
- Dusty Blake

Throughout the 2022 and 2023 seasons, Liberatore was optioned to the minors six times. By the time he made 10 major-league starts, he had acquired just 28 days of service time. He pitched in every role imaginable: spot starter, traditional reliever, long reliever, piggyback — you name it.

The numbers matched what you’d expect given the inconsistency.

There was a lot of uncertainty and not really knowing what my role was, or if I’d get another opportunity here,” Liberatore said.

“ It was hard, and looking back on it, I don’t wish that experience on anybody.”

”He has the mentality where he thinks every moment I’m either going to do something great, or I’m going to be better because I experienced it,” Blake said. “He’s certainly shown his stuff, velocity, command and mentality to be a starter. It’s hard to demonstrate that with the flex role he was in last year and with the limited experience he has up here. For a younger guy, I don’t know how many guys would excel in that role.”

Knowing the Cardinals are committed to him has allowed Liberatore to simply focus on pitching. No more stressing over whether one bad pitch would send him back to the minors. No more fretting over how he’d be used or if he’d ever reach his potential as a starting pitcher.

“I’m not fighting myself out there like I was in previous years,” Liberatore said. “I’m not living and dying with every pitch and what that means to the fate of my career.”

+1 they have derailed so many arms with this type of handling. They rushed top of the rotation of arms to the majors throw them in the bullpen then may sometimes give them half effort chances to start before throwing them back into the bullpen and because they don’t do well in their half [ashed] efforts to start fans jump on the oh they are just relievers band wagon like they did with liebratore then people wonder why they can’t develop top of the rotation arms answer they throw them in the bullpen

[Carp4Cy]

I know I know only late May but what an absolute 180, he figured it out and is still only 25.

May need to be one of the ones to get an ext. and along with Winn and Herrera before they get too pricey.

Let us hope the cards make the playoffs and Libby pitches the cardinals to the World Series like Randy hit the rays to the World Series. I think it’s just a shame they took this long to give him a legitimate shot at starting in the majors instead of jerking him around

People act like Randy isn't keeping pace this year, I find that odd. He has a 1.7 bWAR and a OPS+ 126 or if you prefer wRC+ 130. I understand he's not a superstar, but he is a 150 game starter year after year. That's not easy to do in MLB.

With that said, if he can keep this pace going (Libby) it'll start to look A LOT better and that would be a very good thing.

What I worry about with Libby is him hitting an innings wall.

Hope he learns how to knock that wall down in short order and continue on to the other side

[mattmitchl44]

Roughly-speaking, Arozorena has been about a 3 fWAR player, which is about equivalent to a high #3 SP.

There is a long way to go for Liberatore, but if the Cardinals can get five solid years from him (2025-2029), I think the Cardinals will have been satisfied with the deal.

[thetank2]

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Who cares about trade equality. Doesn’t matter. You stuck with what you get. What’s important is the result we now enjoy.

[An Old Friend]

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

[rockondlouie]

I'm a big fan of win-win trades where both sides are happy, that's the case w/the trade.

Makes it easy for Mo/Bloom to go back to Tampa and make more deals.

[ecleme22]

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

I definitely think that there was too much ‘winging it’ in ‘23-‘24 that potentially hurt his starter results.

I also think he just matured.

[ecleme22]

Roughly-speaking, Arozorena has been about a 3 fWAR player, which is about equivalent to a high #3 SP.

There is a long way to go for Liberatore, but if the Cardinals can get five solid years from him (2025-2029), I think the Cardinals will have been satisfied with the deal.

There is a reason to be happy about the deal TODAY.

Why? Because we can’t go back in time and play the 2020-2022 seasons and playoffs. That window is closed.

Very happy with Libby today. It’s great to see something positive come out of poor OF talent evaluation that lead to removing Randy from the Goldie/Arenado window.

[thetank2]

He needed consistency and commitment from the organization that they hadn’t previously given him.

One really hopes that the org will learn from this to finally start supporting their SP prospects better.

Really?

What specifically do you disagree with?

All organizations have made bad trades. It will happen again. The Cardinals are fortunate that they make far fewer bad position player trades than most anyone. The Cards worst position player trade was trading Johnny Mize after the 1941 season. Randy A is a 20 HR hitter who will be forgotten in a few years like the better player Jose Cruz has been.

The Cards haven't been burned on $80,000,000+ contracts though could have been.