Everyone not named Wetherholt is tradeable: Jeff Passan says club is listening on Burley

[Futuregm2]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

OR

Thanks to Bernie who's now on my side in this debate for doing this research:

Since the start of the 2024 season, only 12 right-handed hitters with at least 1,000 plate appearances have a higher OPS+ than Herrera’s 124: Aaron Judge, Bobby Witt Jr., Willson Contreras, Byron Buxton, Junior Camineiro, Vlad Guerrero Jr., Mike Trout, Brent Rooker, Seiya Suzuki, Pete Alonso, Yandy Diaz and Will Smith.

Moreover, when he’s right Herrera is an on-base machine. Since the start of the 2023 season only 10 MLB hitters (from either side of the plate) have a higher OBP than Herrera’s .370.

Here's a video he did titled:

DON'T DO IT!
Trading Ivan Herrera Would Be a MISTAKE

And last time I looked the "DH" is an actually lineup card spot that needs filling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHwmRs_EbxM

Did he mention how Herrera has a career low EV this year? Or barrel% of 5.5%? Or a low hard hit% of 38.6%? He's become a walking only player. And even that has sucked lately (0 walks in his last 78 PA).

[rockondlouie]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

OR

Thanks to Bernie who's now on my side in this debate for doing this research:

Since the start of the 2024 season, only 12 right-handed hitters with at least 1,000 plate appearances have a higher OPS+ than Herrera’s 124: Aaron Judge, Bobby Witt Jr., Willson Contreras, Byron Buxton, Junior Camineiro, Vlad Guerrero Jr., Mike Trout, Brent Rooker, Seiya Suzuki, Pete Alonso, Yandy Diaz and Will Smith.

Moreover, when he’s right Herrera is an on-base machine. Since the start of the 2023 season only 10 MLB hitters (from either side of the plate) have a higher OBP than Herrera’s .370.

Here's a video he did titled:

DON'T DO IT!
Trading Ivan Herrera Would Be a MISTAKE

And last time I looked the "DH" is an actually lineup card spot that needs filling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHwmRs_EbxM

Did he mention how Herrera has a career low EV this year? Or barrel% of 5.5%? Or a low hard hit% of 38.6%? He's become a walking only player. And even that has sucked lately (0 walks in his last 78 PA).

So one half of a season, when he's catching a lot more than usual, overrides the other years?

We both know Bernal and of course eventually R.R. are going to be the catchers very soon, likely 2027 for Bernal....2028 for R.R.

But I'll take Herrera as my DH and P-T 1st baseman as I've been suggesting starting vs LHSP while Burly sits.

You simply cant ignore the facts, Herrera is one of the BEST RHH'ers in MLB.

[renostl]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

He is far away from being untouchable.

All those catchers though do not mean much today or in 2027.
I have doubts that both Bernal and Rodriquez graduate in 2027.
At least not for the full season and given full-time catcher roles.

Crooks will be as much, and maybe streakier as IH with the bat with more SO. Pages we know.
Why not keep the best backup to Bernal 1 more season and see if his game transitions
enough for MLB? "Best" is completely debatable. IH though can provide production when
not catching and IF Bernal does graduate isn't he going to receive substantial PT?

We're both aware of the pro's and con's. You're more informed than I.
I just don't think that the number of catchers matter a lot when none of the current 3 at the MLB level
ideally fill the position as a #1 C and the potential #1's are prospects today.

[Futuregm2]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

He is far away from being untouchable.

All those catchers though do not mean much today or in 2027.
I have doubts that both Bernal and Rodriquez graduate in 2027.
At least not for the full season and given full-time catcher roles.

Crooks will be as much, and maybe streakier as IH with the bat with more SO. Pages we know.
Why not keep the best backup to Bernal 1 more season and see if his game transitions
enough for MLB? "Best" is completely debatable. IH though can provide production when
not catching and IF Bernal does graduate isn't he going to receive substantial PT?

We're both aware of the pro's and con's. You're more informed than I.
I just don't think that the number of catchers matter a lot when none of the current 3 at the MLB level
ideally fill the position as a #1 C and the potential #1's are prospects today.

Bernal will definitely be up in 2027. He could be up this year come September.

Rodriguez will probably be 2nd half of 2027. But I wouldn't be shocked if he is up earlier than that. He's got a special bat.

[scoutyjones2]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

OR

Thanks to Bernie who's now on my side in this debate for doing this research:

Since the start of the 2024 season, only 12 right-handed hitters with at least 1,000 plate appearances have a higher OPS+ than Herrera’s 124: Aaron Judge, Bobby Witt Jr., Willson Contreras, Byron Buxton, Junior Camineiro, Vlad Guerrero Jr., Mike Trout, Brent Rooker, Seiya Suzuki, Pete Alonso, Yandy Diaz and Will Smith.

Moreover, when he’s right Herrera is an on-base machine. Since the start of the 2023 season only 10 MLB hitters (from either side of the plate) have a higher OBP than Herrera’s .370.

Here's a video he did titled:

DON'T DO IT!
Trading Ivan Herrera Would Be a MISTAKE

And last time I looked the "DH" is an actually lineup card spot that needs filling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHwmRs_EbxM

Ivans a 2 WAR player. That's nothing to hang onto when he plays no position. I'm trading him.Bumbles can go too. Both are replaceable

[renostl]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

He is far away from being untouchable.

All those catchers though do not mean much today or in 2027.
I have doubts that both Bernal and Rodriquez graduate in 2027.
At least not for the full season and given full-time catcher roles.

Crooks will be as much, and maybe streakier as IH with the bat with more SO. Pages we know.
Why not keep the best backup to Bernal 1 more season and see if his game transitions
enough for MLB? "Best" is completely debatable. IH though can provide production when
not catching and IF Bernal does graduate isn't he going to receive substantial PT?

We're both aware of the pro's and con's. You're more informed than I.
I just don't think that the number of catchers matter a lot when none of the current 3 at the MLB level
ideally fill the position as a #1 C and the potential #1's are prospects today.

Bernal will definitely be up in 2027. He could be up this year come September.

Rodriguez will probably be 2nd half of 2027. But I wouldn't be shocked if he is up earlier than that. He's got a special bat.

High probability.
I'm just not putting it in stone for 2 reasons.

Catcher has an effect on the pitchers and game management.
Will the Cardinals hand that to 2 rookies?
The other is if the Cardinals have any desire for these 2 players
to be a catcher, more playing time is better than less.

If Rodriguez is the actual heir to the position then trading Bernal
instead of Herrera can certainly be an outcome. It's just that you're
putting a lot of eggs in that basket before you have to.

[rockondlouie]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

Since 2024 Herrera has a .790 OPS. And most of his statcast numbers have regressed pretty well this year. And he's mostly become a DH. That's not good enough to make him "untouchable". Especially when you have Bernal (.851 OPS and superior defense in AAA) and Rainiel Rodriguez (.981 OPS over his last 189 PA in AA) knocking down the door.

OR

Thanks to Bernie who's now on my side in this debate for doing this research:

Since the start of the 2024 season, only 12 right-handed hitters with at least 1,000 plate appearances have a higher OPS+ than Herrera’s 124: Aaron Judge, Bobby Witt Jr., Willson Contreras, Byron Buxton, Junior Camineiro, Vlad Guerrero Jr., Mike Trout, Brent Rooker, Seiya Suzuki, Pete Alonso, Yandy Diaz and Will Smith.

Moreover, when he’s right Herrera is an on-base machine. Since the start of the 2023 season only 10 MLB hitters (from either side of the plate) have a higher OBP than Herrera’s .370.

Here's a video he did titled:

DON'T DO IT!
Trading Ivan Herrera Would Be a MISTAKE

And last time I looked the "DH" is an actually lineup card spot that needs filling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHwmRs_EbxM

Ivans a 2 WAR player. That's nothing to hang onto when he plays no position. I'm trading him.Bumbles can go too. Both are replaceable

I'll pass on dealing Herrera, okay dealing Bumbles if the return is strong.

[ShakeyWalton]

Makes perfect sense

If the return was right, then I'd deal Walker, Winn, Burly, Pallante, RO'B, ect..........

Only off limits for me are JJW & I. Herrera and of course the untouchable R. R.

JMO

JJ is my only untouchable. R.R. is about a close as it gets for a prospect as I can't envision a move where it makes sense to trade him, but we have lots of catchers and if he returned an elite MLB player at a position of need I'd at least have to consider it.

Walker is in a tier below them by himself. I'd live to build around him, but that requires an extension and/or ownership willing to spend on the rest of the roster in the near term. If that isn't realistic then seeking high makes a lot of sense, as much as it pains me to say that.

Everybody else is expendable in the right deal including our only other good hitters in Burleson and Herrera.

You don't trade RR...

I literally said "I can't envision a move where it makes sense to move him".

But he hasn't produced at the MLB level like JJ has, so I'm just distinguishing between the two.

And I disagree with the last part of the sentence.

Just because he's a catcher and we have a lot of catching PROSPECTS, doesn't make him expendable.

I'll bet you'd trade him for PCA.

If so, you and RBI essentially agree. He's not untradeable.

Not sure I would, though his contract is a lot better than Witt's.

Do you think Rainiel Rodriguez is a Latin Johnny Bench?

If I was Cham, I'd sprint the the phone and probably give my self a heart attack if someone told me the Cubs were on the line wanting to trade PCA for RR. But whatever.

You and everyone else, except for that guy and probably the other goofball that thinks Herrera is off limits. A freaking 2 WAR DH unavailable in trade. LOL

[ClassicO]

None of the Cards' top trade candidates are worth a great deal. None are in the top 25 available on ESPN's list.
So, let's not expect a great haul back for these guys. The key is that they should be traded because they are either gone in FA or aren't going to be part of a championship team here.

26. Riley O'Brien (not in top 50 with MLB)
34. Lars Nootbaar (29th with MLB)
37. May (25th with MLB)
83 - Jo Jo (not in top 50 with MLB)

So that's why Herrera and Burly get mentioned, as they are the only ones who would bring much.

[Huzzah]

I'm not sure why some people are so against trading Herrera. Sure, he draws walks and gets hit by pitches, but beyond that he just doesn't produce enough offensively. If the right deal came along, I'd trade him in a heartbeat.

[Bully4you]

Makes sense.
Burley is a little old for a 7-8 year rebuild.
May as well move him as well.
Team needs pitching, pitching, pitching.
I'd move Jordan Walker too while his trade value high.
Try and snag some high-end pitching prospects this time.

I mean we have at least 7-8 more years before they could contend, right?

First, it's not a 7 or 8 year rebuild before projecting to contend. That'd be a ridiculous target, and if that was the target, you'd consider trading everybody, basically rolling the dice hoping for a better result. Guess if you're desperate, you might as well try Vegas, but the Cards aren't desperate, instead in good position as they stay the course. The farm system currently has some potentially high end pitching developing.
Also, Walker's current BTV isn't that high, instead around +20, which is similar to Burly's. Winn's is +24.
Also, it's not all about SP pitching, and the current rotation has been surprisingly good minus Libs. Currently it's been mainly the offense and BP holding the team back from contending for a WC berth.
I would agree trading Burly should be a consideration. As far as I know, this might be his career year, and he's tracking for a bWAR under +3, and is 5th among the team in position players with his current bWAR. I don't want 1B blocked by an average-ish to below average 1B moving forward, especially with a top hitting prospect like Rainiel climbing up quickly. Burly could potentially go a long way to bring back Emerson Hancock, who could replace D. May with a probable better health outlook. Then plug in Herrera at 1B.
Could a Hancock, Mathews, McGreevy, Pallante and Leahy rotation next year contend for a WC?
Baez will likely be part of the OF next year. Let's see how Bernal looks at the show. Shore up the BP which isn't like trying to climb Mt. Everest.
Sure, the Cards won't be in the top 5 WS contenders at the start of next year, but could be in the top 10 as early as next year. That's a reasonable step up toward contending.

I see no evidence that they'll be ready to take the division any time soon?
Right now at this point with what they have--7 to 8 years is conservative.
You may think the timeline is unreasonable, but what have they got?
Nothing. They have nothing.
Nothing special that is.

[Bully4you]

Makes sense.
Burley is a little old for a 7-8 year rebuild.
May as well move him as well.
Team needs pitching, pitching, pitching.
I'd move Jordan Walker too while his trade value high.
Try and snag some high-end pitching prospects this time.

I mean we have at least 7-8 more years before they could contend, right?

7-8 years.
lol.

Ridiculous.

I see no evidence that they'll be ready to take the division any time soon?
Right now at this point with what they have--7 to 8 years is conservative.
You may think the timeline is unreasonable, but what have they got?
Nothing. They have nothing.
Nothing special that is.

[Bully4you]

Makes sense.
Burley is a little old for a 7-8 year rebuild.
May as well move him as well.
Team needs pitching, pitching, pitching.
I'd move Jordan Walker too while his trade value high.
Try and snag some high-end pitching prospects this time.

I mean we have at least 7-8 more years before they could contend, right?

2028 is when the expected window opens. They are buyers as early as next year.

Okay, but they are notoriously cheap.
They have a lousy team.
It's the Midwest.
Many top free agents will be uninclined to come here.
What's the attraction for a free agent?
Between the bad team, the frugalness and the area, I'd say signing top players will be very difficult.
Just a bit of realism.
Hell, they are now 21st in attendance.
Zero excitement at this time.

[JDW]

Makes sense.
Burley is a little old for a 7-8 year rebuild.
May as well move him as well.
Team needs pitching, pitching, pitching.
I'd move Jordan Walker too while his trade value high.
Try and snag some high-end pitching prospects this time.

I mean we have at least 7-8 more years before they could contend, right?

First, it's not a 7 or 8 year rebuild before projecting to contend. That'd be a ridiculous target, and if that was the target, you'd consider trading everybody, basically rolling the dice hoping for a better result. Guess if you're desperate, you might as well try Vegas, but the Cards aren't desperate, instead in good position as they stay the course. The farm system currently has some potentially high end pitching developing.
Also, Walker's current BTV isn't that high, instead around +20, which is similar to Burly's. Winn's is +24.
Also, it's not all about SP pitching, and the current rotation has been surprisingly good minus Libs. Currently it's been mainly the offense and BP holding the team back from contending for a WC berth.
I would agree trading Burly should be a consideration. As far as I know, this might be his career year, and he's tracking for a bWAR under +3, and is 5th among the team in position players with his current bWAR. I don't want 1B blocked by an average-ish to below average 1B moving forward, especially with a top hitting prospect like Rainiel climbing up quickly. Burly could potentially go a long way to bring back Emerson Hancock, who could replace D. May with a probable better health outlook. Then plug in Herrera at 1B.
Could a Hancock, Mathews, McGreevy, Pallante and Leahy rotation next year contend for a WC?
Baez will likely be part of the OF next year. Let's see how Bernal looks at the show. Shore up the BP which isn't like trying to climb Mt. Everest.
Sure, the Cards won't be in the top 5 WS contenders at the start of next year, but could be in the top 10 as early as next year. That's a reasonable step up toward contending.

I see no evidence that they'll be ready to take the division any time soon?
Right now at this point with what they have--7 to 8 years is conservative.
You may think the timeline is unreasonable, but what have they got?
Nothing. They have nothing.
Nothing special that is.

So currently they have a MLB team right at .500 that is among the youngest roster in MLB.
They have a solid farm and just had a very good draft by many accounts.
They should be able to greatly expand their budget anytime they think is timely.
Here's a question. Two years ago did you think there was any possibility the White Sox with a 41-121 win-loss record would lead their division in August of 2026?

[ecleme22]

Makes sense.
Burley is a little old for a 7-8 year rebuild.
May as well move him as well.
Team needs pitching, pitching, pitching.
I'd move Jordan Walker too while his trade value high.
Try and snag some high-end pitching prospects this time.

I mean we have at least 7-8 more years before they could contend, right?

First, it's not a 7 or 8 year rebuild before projecting to contend. That'd be a ridiculous target, and if that was the target, you'd consider trading everybody, basically rolling the dice hoping for a better result. Guess if you're desperate, you might as well try Vegas, but the Cards aren't desperate, instead in good position as they stay the course. The farm system currently has some potentially high end pitching developing.
Also, Walker's current BTV isn't that high, instead around +20, which is similar to Burly's. Winn's is +24.
Also, it's not all about SP pitching, and the current rotation has been surprisingly good minus Libs. Currently it's been mainly the offense and BP holding the team back from contending for a WC berth.
I would agree trading Burly should be a consideration. As far as I know, this might be his career year, and he's tracking for a bWAR under +3, and is 5th among the team in position players with his current bWAR. I don't want 1B blocked by an average-ish to below average 1B moving forward, especially with a top hitting prospect like Rainiel climbing up quickly. Burly could potentially go a long way to bring back Emerson Hancock, who could replace D. May with a probable better health outlook. Then plug in Herrera at 1B.
Could a Hancock, Mathews, McGreevy, Pallante and Leahy rotation next year contend for a WC?
Baez will likely be part of the OF next year. Let's see how Bernal looks at the show. Shore up the BP which isn't like trying to climb Mt. Everest.
Sure, the Cards won't be in the top 5 WS contenders at the start of next year, but could be in the top 10 as early as next year. That's a reasonable step up toward contending.

I see no evidence that they'll be ready to take the division any time soon?
Right now at this point with what they have--7 to 8 years is conservative.
You may think the timeline is unreasonable, but what have they got?
Nothing. They have nothing.
Nothing special that is.

The headline for this post:

“Man Who Doesn’t Know and Can’t Identify a Rebuild Thinks Cardinal Rebuild Will Take 7-8 Years.”

[redbirdfan51]

If May's value seems to be low in the trade market, maybe the Cardinals could offer him a reasonable deal to retain him for another season. I am still hopeful the Cards could trade him and get a good return.