Liberatore

[OldRed]

He looks completely worn out after 5 innings. How is he going to handle the summer heat? Years ago, another pitcher the Cardinals had in the minor leagues had the same problem. Whitely made a reliever out of him, he was Todd Worell.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Blew up in 6th inning the start before this and now in the fifth inning. We need to try someone else!!!!

There is nobody else.

Correct. There is potential help in the minors for a few position players, but not starters. Too bad Fitts was injured.

Also, not too many pitchers has the stuff to pitch the way he has in those first 4 innings of last night’s and his previous start. He looked absolutely dominant so I know he can do better.

It’s just frustrating because many expected him to take another step and become a TOTR starter this year instead of a still-developing back end. But he’s not pitching so poorly he should be run out of town.

[rockondlouie]

I've been saying Lib-a-turd (27 yrs old in Nov) is nothing more than a #4/5 starter (last 39 GS: 4.34 ERA/1.37 WHiP).

Couldn't believe someone yesterday wanted to give him a L-T extension.

If someone was ready at Memphis, then I might even slot him back to the pen'.

He's no better than K. Leahy or A. Pallante, behind D. May and nowhere close to McG.

Set to make $6-7M in ARB2 next season.

I'd make him available midseason if some team needs a #4/5 LHSP, he's not part of the L-T future.

JMO

[Cusecards]

So let me get this straight?
After 4 strong shutout innings he had a hiccup
and now he needs to be dropped from the rotation???
Thank God the Troll who started this thread isn’t running the team. LOL
My honest evaluation of Libby? He looks like a solid SP but maybe only a #3 or #4???
That is ok. Long term? Cards need to develop a couple of high end starters.
Could May be one? Doyle? Cijntje? Another from system???
McGreevy looks good. If he is a #3 and Libby a #4 you need to develop your higher ceiling guys.
That is the point of 2026 heading into 2027.

[Cusecards]

He’ll work through it. I’m not worried. He just won’t be on the Allstar Roster this year

+1

[StlMike1969]

Liberatore has had enough time on this team to develop and show who he is in my opinion. He is a long relief guy. He will get you a solid 3 to 4 innings until he wears down and or the lineup starts seeing him a 3rd time. Starters need to be guys capable on any start of giving you a solid 6+ innings of 3 run ball or less, preferably less. Liberatore has one game into the 6th and no games not being scored on. He has to be able to work out of those jams he puts himself in give a solid scoreless 6 once in a while. At the least 6 solid that he does not give up 6+ hits and 4 runs. Until he shows the ability to do that he is destined for the bull pen. McGreevy is the one true starter this team has. He gives you that solid 6 innings of 1 run ball. Dustin May is proving to be a good enough 2nd. He also gives you 6 innings but is getting hit around too much. Leahy and Pallante are oddities that they can give you 7 strong of 3 hit ball and then have 2 games of 5 innings and 4+ runs with a bunch of hits. They just either have or they don't on any given day.

[hugeCardfan]

Blew up in 6th inning the start before this and now in the fifth inning. We need to try someone else!!!!

Or maybe be creative and introduce an opener 1-2 innings letting him start against 7-8 getting him an extra inning only having to face 1-6 twice.

If your sole objective is winning as many games as possible that's a perfectly fine idea. If your goal is to balance winning along with developing and/or evaluating talent to determine who to keep going forward then letting Liberatore try and work through this makes a lot of sense. Same thing with letting Burleson and Gorman face LH pitching.

+. Have missed your level headed posts, Welcome back.

[rockondlouie]

Liberatore has had enough time on this team to develop and show who he is in my opinion. He is a long relief guy. He will get you a solid 3 to 4 innings until he wears down and or the lineup starts seeing him a 3rd time. Starters need to be guys capable on any start of giving you a solid 6+ innings of 3 run ball or less, preferably less. Liberatore has one game into the 6th and no games not being scored on. He has to be able to work out of those jams he puts himself in give a solid scoreless 6 once in a while. At the least 6 solid that he does not give up 6+ hits and 4 runs. Until he shows the ability to do that he is destined for the bull pen. McGreevy is the one true starter this team has. He gives you that solid 6 innings of 1 run ball. Dustin May is proving to be a good enough 2nd. He also gives you 6 innings but is getting hit around too much. Leahy and Pallante are oddities that they can give you 7 strong of 3 hit ball and then have 2 games of 5 innings and 4+ runs with a bunch of hits. They just either have or they don't on any given day.

Bingo Mike

[ilcubuffs]

Lib is in year 5. Exactly how many years till he becomes consistent ML pitcher? How many years till he becomes a consistent performer at 4 spot in rotation?

He may have awesome pitch movement, etc but until he can consistently bring it to the mound during a game he is avg. Currently at 1.55 WHIP and 4.70 ERA says he will be working on avg for quite awhile.

[rbirules]

Liberatore has had enough time on this team to develop and show who he is in my opinion. He is a long relief guy. He will get you a solid 3 to 4 innings until he wears down and or the lineup starts seeing him a 3rd time. Starters need to be guys capable on any start of giving you a solid 6+ innings of 3 run ball or less, preferably less. Liberatore has one game into the 6th and no games not being scored on. He has to be able to work out of those jams he puts himself in give a solid scoreless 6 once in a while. At the least 6 solid that he does not give up 6+ hits and 4 runs. Until he shows the ability to do that he is destined for the bull pen. McGreevy is the one true starter this team has. He gives you that solid 6 innings of 1 run ball. Dustin May is proving to be a good enough 2nd. He also gives you 6 innings but is getting hit around too much. Leahy and Pallante are oddities that they can give you 7 strong of 3 hit ball and then have 2 games of 5 innings and 4+ runs with a bunch of hits. They just either have or they don't on any given day.

Do I think there's a strong chance Libby ultimately ends up in an "Andrew Miller-esque" role, where he's a multi-inning reliever that can dominate for longer than a typical reliever but gets over exposed in the rotation? Yes, I think there's a chance that happens. But in a season like this one, especially with no help on the way at the moment, I don't see why you wouldn't give him another crack at being a SP, at least for a few more months, to see if he can be the pitcher he was in the first half of last year.

If in a few months it's not working then you can explore ideas like using an opener so his 3rd time through the order starts with the bottom of the order not the top, to maybe squeeze an extra inning out of him here and there, or if you get another SP use him and Leahy as a piggy back spot in the rotation. But right now I think we're still in the evaluation part of the cycle.

Most SPs get into trouble the third time through the order, it's just a question of magnitude.

[An Old Friend]

Blew up in 6th inning the start before this and now in the fifth inning. We need to try someone else!!!!

Or maybe be creative and introduce an opener 1-2 innings letting him start against 7-8 getting him an extra inning only having to face 1-6 twice.

If your sole objective is winning as many games as possible that's a perfectly fine idea. If your goal is to balance winning along with developing and/or evaluating talent to determine who to keep going forward then letting Liberatore try and work through this makes a lot of sense. Same thing with letting Burleson and Gorman face LH pitching.

Burleson, sure. His platoon splits (.930 OPS vs RHP, .530 OPS vs LHP) are pronounced.

Gorman thus far in 2026 has no platoon split and a
24% k-rate vs LHP

[StlMike1969]

Liberatore has had enough time on this team to develop and show who he is in my opinion. He is a long relief guy. He will get you a solid 3 to 4 innings until he wears down and or the lineup starts seeing him a 3rd time. Starters need to be guys capable on any start of giving you a solid 6+ innings of 3 run ball or less, preferably less. Liberatore has one game into the 6th and no games not being scored on. He has to be able to work out of those jams he puts himself in give a solid scoreless 6 once in a while. At the least 6 solid that he does not give up 6+ hits and 4 runs. Until he shows the ability to do that he is destined for the bull pen. McGreevy is the one true starter this team has. He gives you that solid 6 innings of 1 run ball. Dustin May is proving to be a good enough 2nd. He also gives you 6 innings but is getting hit around too much. Leahy and Pallante are oddities that they can give you 7 strong of 3 hit ball and then have 2 games of 5 innings and 4+ runs with a bunch of hits. They just either have or they don't on any given day.

Do I think there's a strong chance Libby ultimately ends up in an "Andrew Miller-esque" role, where he's a multi-inning reliever that can dominate for longer than a typical reliever but gets over exposed in the rotation? Yes, I think there's a chance that happens. But in a season like this one, especially with no help on the way at the moment, I don't see why you wouldn't give him another crack at being a SP, at least for a few more months, to see if he can be the pitcher he was in the first half of last year.

If in a few months it's not working then you can explore ideas like using an opener so his 3rd time through the order starts with the bottom of the order not the top, to maybe squeeze an extra inning out of him here and there, or if you get another SP use him and Leahy as a piggy back spot in the rotation. But right now I think we're still in the evaluation part of the cycle.

Most SPs get into trouble the third time through the order, it's just a question of magnitude.

No doubt it is all eval at this time. The Cardinals do not have even one pitcher in the minors blowing the doors down pushing management to find a spot. Unless injury or a trade happens this will most likely be our starting 5 for most of the year. We move into the lockout if there is one and that could change a whole lot of stuff depending on how long it lasts. If the owners push for a salary cap of some kind it could be the season gone. We shall see.

[rockondlouie]

Do I think there's a strong chance Libby ultimately ends up in an "Andrew Miller-esque" role, where he's a multi-inning reliever that can dominate for longer than a typical reliever but gets over exposed in the rotation? Yes, I think there's a chance that happens. But in a season like this one, especially with no help on the way at the moment, I don't see why you wouldn't give him another crack at being a SP, at least for a few more months, to see if he can be the pitcher he was in the first half of last year.

If in a few months it's not working then you can explore ideas like using an opener so his 3rd time through the order starts with the bottom of the order not the top, to maybe squeeze an extra inning out of him here and there, or if you get another SP use him and Leahy as a piggy back spot in the rotation. But right now I think we're still in the evaluation part of the cycle.

Most SPs get into trouble the third time through the order, it's just a question of magnitude.

That's where I think his career is headed too.

Only speculation but he doesn't seem to be in the best of shape which is why I think he tires after three-four innings.

Even in interviews he's seems very low energy.

I'd like to see him work on his conditioning, see if he can build up that stamina.

But slotting him back to the pen' if he's going to be nothing more than a #5 starter might end up being the best move.

I'd rather see him two-three times a week for multiple innings giving max effort than I would once every fifth day as a "meh" starter.

[ICCFIM2]

I've been saying Lib-a-turd (27 yrs old in Nov) is nothing more than a #4/5 starter (last 39 GS: 4.34 ERA/1.37 WHiP).

Couldn't believe someone yesterday wanted to give him a L-T extension.

If someone was ready at Memphis, then I might even slot him back to the pen'.

He's no better than K. Leahy or A. Pallante, behind D. May and nowhere close to McG.

Set to make $6-7M in ARB2 next season.

I'd make him available midseason if some team needs a #4/5 LHSP, he's not part of the L-T future.

JMO

So what is your take on the starters now? I know you were down on Leahy. Leahy, if you take away the 2-3 games he pitched into the 6th and got tagged for 2-3 runs in the 6th inning, his ERA would be around 3.00 if not lower. His last game he went a strong 6. He seems to be improving and looks like a starter. I would argue Leahy is now our third best starter right behind May. I only give May the edge because he has consistently went 6 innings after his rough 2 first starts.

Starters ERA and FIP
McGreevy 2.10 3.87
Leahy 3.94 4.84
Pallante 4.04 4.42
Liberatore 4.70 4.88
May 4.81 3.85

Outside of McGreevy, none have been great. Pallante, I think we know who he is. May and Leahy I am hopeful for as they have looked really good the last several times out. Liberatore and Pallante are #4/5 guys in my view. McGreevy is looking like a #1 despite his lack of a high octane fastball. May and Leahy have the looks of solid #3s to me, albeit, Leahy has to show he can pitch through 6 innings. He seems to be getting there better than Liberatore.

It also seems the Cards since they don't have any ready made starter replacements in Memphis other than Dobbins, he is getting the McGreevy treatment this year, i.e. they won't call him up except to pitch double headers or occasionally during a long stretch of games. Personally I think they could remove either Bruihl (the one I prefer) or Schuster (who has pitched well enough we should see more of first) from the roster and put Dobbins on the roster. We have enough starters that seem to wear out after 4 innings that he should be able to get into at least 1 game every 3-5 days with the goal of pitching him 3-5 innings in that game. That should keep him in a situation where he can still spot start while perhaps keeping innings off some of the other relievers.

[imetsatchelpaige]

Blew up in 6th inning the start before this and now in the fifth inning. We need to try someone else!!!!

Or maybe be creative and introduce an opener 1-2 innings letting him start against 7-8 getting him an extra inning only having to face 1-6 twice.

If your sole objective is winning as many games as possible that's a perfectly fine idea. If your goal is to balance winning along with developing and/or evaluating talent to determine who to keep going forward then letting Liberatore try and work through this makes a lot of sense. Same thing with letting Burleson and Gorman face LH pitching.

Exactly.

[ecleme22]

Blew up in 6th inning the start before this and now in the fifth inning. We need to try someone else!!!!

Or maybe be creative and introduce an opener 1-2 innings letting him start against 7-8 getting him an extra inning only having to face 1-6 twice.

If your sole objective is winning as many games as possible that's a perfectly fine idea. If your goal is to balance winning along with developing and/or evaluating talent to determine who to keep going forward then letting Liberatore try and work through this makes a lot of sense. Same thing with letting Burleson and Gorman face LH pitching.

Exactly.

Libby is getting a long leash not because it’s a rebuild season, but because the way the roster is built.