Dube

[DoneLurking]

The honest answer is idk. I know the details of the case and that he was acquitted but you also have to factor in potential reputational damage to the org. I’m sure the Blues have a ton more info on it all than me though - a more detailed understanding of what all happened that night (regardless of what could or couldn’t be proven in court), Dube’s part in it, how he is as a person now as well as what the likely perception around the league would be if they were to sign him.

But given what I know, I’d be hesitant to sign him to a NHL deal. He’s a guy that could probably be a good 4C but is he worth the potential headache and baggage? Wouldn’t it just be easier to find someone else, go with Finley or see if Dean can work his way back on the map in camp?

I paid attention to the case pretty well and my sense is the girl didn’t make it all up but I also absolutely got the impression that Mikey McLeod was by far the worst perpetrator and it’s possible the rest of the guys didn’t fully know she really wasn’t all that into it. But it’s all a big he said, she said and she seemed timid as heck and didn’t really voice she wasn’t into it so I wasn’t remotely surprised they were found not guilty as there just wasn’t much of any proof, especially once the judge threw out a lot of the previous depositions from the accused that were a lot more damning than what they said in court this time around.

But again, the Blues would know the circumstances and the player way better than I so if they do decide to give him a NHL contract, I’d probably hesitantly be ok with it.

But even if the Blues feel he is completely innocent, or feel he’s a better person now and are willing to give him a 2nd chance, teams still have to weigh if he brings enough talent to truly be worth the baggage. I question if a guy that looks like he could be a solid NHL 4C is truly worth that baggage. It’s a harsh way of looking at it but businesses have to weigh potential risk/reward all the time.

Just +1ing this.

I question what diligence the Blues did as none of us know. Did they just ask Dube what he’s learned from the experience? How he’s grown? Did they talk to the accuser? Did they run a private investigation? Did they just accept the verdict as sufficient? We truly don’t know. And we don’t know what would be enough for the Blues. And I don’t mean I think the Blues are immoral, but I think we’d find a wide variety of opinion on this board of what would be sufficient diligence.

And in a rape case with the amount of time that passed, the amount of maneuvering between civil and then criminal courts. The efforts from third parties like team Canada and on the accuser’s side also, it’s ok to admit that we really just don’t know one way or the other.

You can read the Blues statement after signing him here
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/472 ... -acquittal

"The St. Louis Blues have signed Dillon Dube to a professional tryout with our AHL affiliate in following the process set forth by the National Hockey League and its Players' Association upon his reinstatement," the team said in a statement to ESPN. "This decision follows a comprehensive review of the details of his case and discussions at all levels of our organization. We are confident in the decision to offer the tryout and will provide the necessary support to ensure Dillon contributes positively both on the ice and in the community. We will always hold our players to the highest of standards, consistent with the core values of our organization, and that will be emphasized as we move forward."

This sounds great if you want it to, but it does not answer any of the questions presented above.

Again, I think there will be a wide variety of opinions on what is sufficient diligence. The quote won't change that.

[skilles]

To me its pretty dumb to expect the Blues to do any investigating what happened outside of going over the case information and evaluating the player as a person.

[DoneLurking]

The honest answer is idk. I know the details of the case and that he was acquitted but you also have to factor in potential reputational damage to the org. I’m sure the Blues have a ton more info on it all than me though - a more detailed understanding of what all happened that night (regardless of what could or couldn’t be proven in court), Dube’s part in it, how he is as a person now as well as what the likely perception around the league would be if they were to sign him.

But given what I know, I’d be hesitant to sign him to a NHL deal. He’s a guy that could probably be a good 4C but is he worth the potential headache and baggage? Wouldn’t it just be easier to find someone else, go with Finley or see if Dean can work his way back on the map in camp?

I paid attention to the case pretty well and my sense is the girl didn’t make it all up but I also absolutely got the impression that Mikey McLeod was by far the worst perpetrator and it’s possible the rest of the guys didn’t fully know she really wasn’t all that into it. But it’s all a big he said, she said and she seemed timid as heck and didn’t really voice she wasn’t into it so I wasn’t remotely surprised they were found not guilty as there just wasn’t much of any proof, especially once the judge threw out a lot of the previous depositions from the accused that were a lot more damning than what they said in court this time around.

But again, the Blues would know the circumstances and the player way better than I so if they do decide to give him a NHL contract, I’d probably hesitantly be ok with it.

But even if the Blues feel he is completely innocent, or feel he’s a better person now and are willing to give him a 2nd chance, teams still have to weigh if he brings enough talent to truly be worth the baggage. I question if a guy that looks like he could be a solid NHL 4C is truly worth that baggage. It’s a harsh way of looking at it but businesses have to weigh potential risk/reward all the time.

Just +1ing this.

I question what diligence the Blues did as none of us know. Did they just ask Dube what he’s learned from the experience? How he’s grown? Did they talk to the accuser? Did they run a private investigation? Did they just accept the verdict as sufficient? We truly don’t know. And we don’t know what would be enough for the Blues. And I don’t mean I think the Blues are immoral, but I think we’d find a wide variety of opinion on this board of what would be sufficient diligence.

And in a rape case with the amount of time that passed, the amount of maneuvering between civil and then criminal courts. The efforts from third parties like team Canada and on the accuser’s side also, it’s ok to admit that we really just don’t know one way or the other.

OK, so where does that leave you? Now, you are not a decision-maker here in this case, so nothing says you have to come down one way or another, but have you? Can you? Should you?

I'm left wondering what the point is in even questioning the Blues due-diligence? They are the employer, employers deal with this kind of stuff. There are laws, guidelines, policies, and those may vary in different situations. And risk assessments. Is there REALLY a concern the Blues are not a competent corporation capable of making these decisions?

It leaves me wanting to know more. If the Blues level of diligence was that he was acquitted, they talked amongst themselves and decided that was enough, then I don't think that is sufficient diligence and I would expect more of them. If they probed deeper and did some independent investigation, then I would feel better about it.

Is there a concern the Blues are not a competent corporation capable of making the decision? That's kind of a steering question. They clearly made the decision. That doesn't mean everyone will agree it was the morally correct one. That's evident in the disagreement even on this thread.

[DoneLurking]

To me its pretty dumb to expect the Blues to do any investigating what happened outside of going over the case information and evaluating the player as a person.

How can you evaluate the player as a person if you're not looking into a moment where he was accused of sexual assault? You can say the verdict is enough for you. Not everyone is going to agree.

[dhsux]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

[Walter Sobchak00]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

I think he's as big of a blowhard egomaniac dumb take writing guy as anyone but comparing his forum behavior and taking advantage of an intoxicated woman isn't even comparable.

[Army's Mom]

The honest answer is idk. I know the details of the case and that he was acquitted but you also have to factor in potential reputational damage to the org. I’m sure the Blues have a ton more info on it all than me though - a more detailed understanding of what all happened that night (regardless of what could or couldn’t be proven in court), Dube’s part in it, how he is as a person now as well as what the likely perception around the league would be if they were to sign him.

But given what I know, I’d be hesitant to sign him to a NHL deal. He’s a guy that could probably be a good 4C but is he worth the potential headache and baggage? Wouldn’t it just be easier to find someone else, go with Finley or see if Dean can work his way back on the map in camp?

I paid attention to the case pretty well and my sense is the girl didn’t make it all up but I also absolutely got the impression that Mikey McLeod was by far the worst perpetrator and it’s possible the rest of the guys didn’t fully know she really wasn’t all that into it. But it’s all a big he said, she said and she seemed timid as heck and didn’t really voice she wasn’t into it so I wasn’t remotely surprised they were found not guilty as there just wasn’t much of any proof, especially once the judge threw out a lot of the previous depositions from the accused that were a lot more damning than what they said in court this time around.

But again, the Blues would know the circumstances and the player way better than I so if they do decide to give him a NHL contract, I’d probably hesitantly be ok with it.

But even if the Blues feel he is completely innocent, or feel he’s a better person now and are willing to give him a 2nd chance, teams still have to weigh if he brings enough talent to truly be worth the baggage. I question if a guy that looks like he could be a solid NHL 4C is truly worth that baggage. It’s a harsh way of looking at it but businesses have to weigh potential risk/reward all the time.

Just +1ing this.

I question what diligence the Blues did as none of us know. Did they just ask Dube what he’s learned from the experience? How he’s grown? Did they talk to the accuser? Did they run a private investigation? Did they just accept the verdict as sufficient? We truly don’t know. And we don’t know what would be enough for the Blues. And I don’t mean I think the Blues are immoral, but I think we’d find a wide variety of opinion on this board of what would be sufficient diligence.

And in a rape case with the amount of time that passed, the amount of maneuvering between civil and then criminal courts. The efforts from third parties like team Canada and on the accuser’s side also, it’s ok to admit that we really just don’t know one way or the other.

OK, so where does that leave you? Now, you are not a decision-maker here in this case, so nothing says you have to come down one way or another, but have you? Can you? Should you?

I'm left wondering what the point is in even questioning the Blues due-diligence? They are the employer, employers deal with this kind of stuff. There are laws, guidelines, policies, and those may vary in different situations. And risk assessments. Is there REALLY a concern the Blues are not a competent corporation capable of making these decisions?

It leaves me wanting to know more. If the Blues level of diligence was that he was acquitted, they talked amongst themselves and decided that was enough, then I don't think that is sufficient diligence and I would expect more of them. If they probed deeper and did some independent investigation, then I would feel better about it.

Is there a concern the Blues are not a competent corporation capable of making the decision? That's kind of a steering question. They clearly made the decision. That doesn't mean everyone will agree it was the morally correct one. That's evident in the disagreement even on this thread.

Yeah, I mean the Hawks would've said they did they're due diligence right after parting ways with Beach, too. The problem is their "due diligence" sucked. Some hockey teams/executives put competitive advantage ahead of everything else and cut corners by adding players or coaches whose behavior 99% of us would find reprehensible.

[dhsux]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

I think he's as big of a blowhard egomaniac dumb take writing guy as anyone but comparing his forum behavior and taking advantage of an intoxicated woman isn't even comparable.

They are both egregious, agree one certainly more than the other, but I'll stand by my comment on regarding his own lapse of his own past actions multiple times and then wanting forgiveness...multiple times.

[Old_Goat]

Is he truly a Center or a Left Wing?
And if he is a "sort-of" Center whom played that in Junior, similar to Kyrou or Holloway or even Otto Stenberg, but really they all are better at Wing, then is he truly better than Stenberg?
Is he a better Center than Suter or Zach Dean?
Is there any urgent rush to lock him into a contract at this time?
Depending on the answer to my last question and its supporting rationale, then it seems there will be a lot to find out between now and Draft day and the start of Free Agency negotiations.

[skilles]

To me its pretty dumb to expect the Blues to do any investigating what happened outside of going over the case information and evaluating the player as a person.

How can you evaluate the player as a person if you're not looking into a moment where he was accused of sexual assault? You can say the verdict is enough for you. Not everyone is going to agree.

Well I can use the information already gathered by an actual real criminal investigation

[skilles]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

I think he's as big of a blowhard egomaniac dumb take writing guy as anyone but comparing his forum behavior and taking advantage of an intoxicated woman isn't even comparable.

Everyone was intoxicated

[Walter Sobchak00]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

I think he's as big of a blowhard egomaniac dumb take writing guy as anyone but comparing his forum behavior and taking advantage of an intoxicated woman isn't even comparable.

Everyone was intoxicated

Which changes what exactly?

[DoneLurking]

To me its pretty dumb to expect the Blues to do any investigating what happened outside of going over the case information and evaluating the player as a person.

How can you evaluate the player as a person if you're not looking into a moment where he was accused of sexual assault? You can say the verdict is enough for you. Not everyone is going to agree.

Well I can use the information already gathered by an actual real criminal investigation

That’s your choice. Just know that not everyone is going to agree.

There’s a difference between the standard of proof in a court of law and in life, and for good reason. As the saying goes it’s better to let a guilty person go free than to convict an innocent one.

The logic behind that is intentional, but also means that sometimes a guilty person goes free.

Secondly, even if we could all agree that Dube’s behavior wasn’t criminal, that doesn’t mean everyone in our society will accept it. You’re seeing these differences of opinion on this board.

As MN said, and as I agreed in part, does Dube’s on ice play make all of this disagreement worth it?

[JoshInFenton]

I'd say no mostly from a team standpoint. He's not a good fit for a 4th liner, so he has to be a 2nd or 3rd liner. We don't really have a need for a forward unless we clear some logjam, and i'm not particularly convinced he is so good at the NHL level that he deserves that. Think he's more of a 35-45 point middle 6 center. Maybe if you gave him premier linemates it would be even better, hard to say.

I'm not as worried about the off the ice drama, teams give people more chances than they deserve all the time.

[skilles]

I believe the team started the turnaround when he arrived. He’s been fantastic in the playoffs. He’s a Center which we desperately need.

He was very young, and I believe he was not even convicted, although there was certainly some bad behavior in bad choices.

I would ask that, and even some of the older players have his behavior has been and if it looks like he’s learned and grown up, give him a second chance.

Here comes the “we all did dumb stuff at 19” crowd.

Right on cue.

This is extra hilarious/sad coming from an adult you of all people having twice asked this board to forgive you your behavior here.

Or has it been three times?

You can't make this up.

I think he's as big of a blowhard egomaniac dumb take writing guy as anyone but comparing his forum behavior and taking advantage of an intoxicated woman isn't even comparable.

Everyone was intoxicated

Which changes what exactly?

I don't know, you tell me? You brought up intoxication.

[skilles]

To me its pretty dumb to expect the Blues to do any investigating what happened outside of going over the case information and evaluating the player as a person.

How can you evaluate the player as a person if you're not looking into a moment where he was accused of sexual assault? You can say the verdict is enough for you. Not everyone is going to agree.

Well I can use the information already gathered by an actual real criminal investigation

That’s your choice. Just know that not everyone is going to agree.

There’s a difference between the standard of proof in a court of law and in life, and for good reason. As the saying goes it’s better to let a guilty person go free than to convict an innocent one.

The logic behind that is intentional, but also means that sometimes a guilty person goes free.

Secondly, even if we could all agree that Dube’s behavior wasn’t criminal, that doesn’t mean everyone in our society will accept it. You’re seeing these differences of opinion on this board.

As MN said, and as I agreed in part, does Dube’s on ice play make all of this disagreement worth it?

Not everyone agrees with anything, best to make decisions based on the facts you know