Cijntje

[BaseStealer]

I haven't yet seen any real, time proven, results that
would tell me the Cardinals know anything about pitching or developing pitching.
How many of those named in this thread will be remembered five years from now?
However, it is just starting for Bloom and results from his regime are mostly yet to be seen.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

[Futuregm2]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

[renostl]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

He flat out may never make it, His next pitch could be his last. It is part of
the plan that every single MLB team incorporates and acquires as many as possible.

I will point you to your own examples of Dobbs, Fitts, Franklin, Doyle, Hence, Mathews
and Cijntje. Most are very recent additions. There will be many more. This can actually lesson
any of the desperation of having any single pitcher to make it.

Lastly, what is long term and why is it important?
IF a team signs a FA pitcher what term is ideal?

[renostl]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

Would they have offered Donovan a QO? He’s never had an OPS above .790 in his career and his bWAR the last 3 years hasn’t topped 3. And he’d be 2 years older. And the QO was like $22 million the past year. More likely a player like him signs an extension by that point anyways though or is traded as he was.

Again, he’s a solid player, but no star.

Unfortunately, he has yet to answer this question yet or how it would work
if his preferred method of trading BD at the TD would have been.

Grading today, it was a Seattle overpay, emotion coming off their unusual run.
They really should have spent money instead, but they do not like to do that.
Time may prove me wrong, it sometimes does, but trades work that way.

[renostl]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

They may have gotten a good deal, true, but it is not possible unless they or another team offered
more and Bloom said no thanks. That he likes this lesser deal better.
Give credit that people take what they see as the best offer on the table.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

They may have gotten a good deal, true, but it is not possible unless they or another team offered
more and Bloom said no thanks. That he likes this lesser deal better.
Give credit that people take what they see as the best offer on the table.

If what you’re saying is true, then maybe the best deal would’ve been to extend Donovan. He could’ve also waited to sell at the deadline. I know he’s injured at the moment, but we can’t say he would’ve sustained the same injury playing LF for us.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

We already had JJW, he was irrelevant to the return value of that trade. Having him ready to take on 2B full time was nice, be a big part of Donovan’s value was his ability to play anywhere and hit anywhere in the lineup. Good chance we’d be in first place right now with Donny.

[Futuregm2]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

We already had JJW, he was irrelevant to the return value of that trade. Having him ready to take on 2B full time was nice, be a big part of Donovan’s value was his ability to play anywhere and hit anywhere in the lineup. Good chance we’d be in first place right now with Donny.

Donovan’s most value stems from playing 2B IMO. Yes he’s versatile, but he doesn’t hit enough at other positions to really make it worth it IMO. As a 2B he’s a good hitter. But Wetherholt’s presence made Donovan expendable.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

We already had JJW, he was irrelevant to the return value of that trade. Having him ready to take on 2B full time was nice, be a big part of Donovan’s value was his ability to play anywhere and hit anywhere in the lineup. Good chance we’d be in first place right now with Donny.

Donovan’s most value stems from playing 2B IMO. Yes he’s versatile, but he doesn’t hit enough at other positions to really make it worth it IMO. As a 2B he’s a good hitter. But Wetherholt’s presence made Donovan expendable.

At second base I guess. Did Urias/Gorman at 3B and Sagesse/Fermin in LF make him expendable? What if Masynn Winn has his typical health issues? JJW and BD could also hold down the middle respectably. Good leader for a young team too. I don’t agree that he was expendable, his loss stings.

[Futuregm2]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

We already had JJW, he was irrelevant to the return value of that trade. Having him ready to take on 2B full time was nice, be a big part of Donovan’s value was his ability to play anywhere and hit anywhere in the lineup. Good chance we’d be in first place right now with Donny.

Donovan’s most value stems from playing 2B IMO. Yes he’s versatile, but he doesn’t hit enough at other positions to really make it worth it IMO. As a 2B he’s a good hitter. But Wetherholt’s presence made Donovan expendable.

At second base I guess. Did Urias/Gorman at 3B and Sagesse/Fermin in LF make him expendable? What if Masynn Winn has his typical health issues? JJW and BD could also hold down the middle respectably. Good leader for a young team too. I don’t agree that he was expendable, his loss stings.

A) How does his loss “sting”? This team is doing well. And Donovan is hurt again.

B) Donovan also has 4 errors at 3B this year (.907 fielding% in 2026/career .946 fielding% at 3B). And I don’t think his bat plays as well at 3B or LF. It’s above average at 2B. It’s not at the other positions and we are better off finding other solutions there.

Again, solid player. No star. He was the best player to deal this past offseason. Did they get a good haul in the long run? Time will tell.

[renostl]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

They may have gotten a good deal, true, but it is not possible unless they or another team offered
more and Bloom said no thanks. That he likes this lesser deal better.
Give credit that people take what they see as the best offer on the table.

If what you’re saying is true, then maybe the best deal would’ve been to extend Donovan. He could’ve also waited to sell at the deadline. I know he’s injured at the moment, but we can’t say he would’ve sustained the same injury playing LF for us.

The market changes constantly.
The extension may have been approached and the two parties
just didn't match. More difficult to think they didn't talk.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

Agree on both points. Seattle got to underpay.

They say you have to give to get, but their give was spread so thin they won’t feel it a bit. Nor will the Cardinals get any high-impact return without a heavy dose of luck. In this particular trade, they should’ve felt the pain of the loss, like we did with Donovan.

Was he an MVP candidate? No, but he was the cost controlled proven roster player that can make immediate impact, even on a contender. That cost is supposed to be premium, as the alternative to acquire a proven “role” player like him is a free agency bidding war.

Did we though? Wetherholt is at least as good as Donovan. We didn’t feel “pain”, we had a rookie ready to make an impact, quite possibly a bigger impact than Donovan, and we traded Donovan for 3 prospects (2 of which have at least the ability to have high ceilings) and 2 draft picks.

We already had JJW, he was irrelevant to the return value of that trade. Having him ready to take on 2B full time was nice, be a big part of Donovan’s value was his ability to play anywhere and hit anywhere in the lineup. Good chance we’d be in first place right now with Donny.

Donovan’s most value stems from playing 2B IMO. Yes he’s versatile, but he doesn’t hit enough at other positions to really make it worth it IMO. As a 2B he’s a good hitter. But Wetherholt’s presence made Donovan expendable.

At second base I guess. Did Urias/Gorman at 3B and Sagesse/Fermin in LF make him expendable? What if Masynn Winn has his typical health issues? JJW and BD could also hold down the middle respectably. Good leader for a young team too. I don’t agree that he was expendable, his loss stings.

A) How does his loss “sting”? This team is doing well. And Donovan is hurt again.

B) Donovan also has 4 errors at 3B this year (.907 fielding% in 2026/career .946 fielding% at 3B). And I don’t think his bat plays as well at 3B or LF. It’s above average at 2B. It’s not at the other positions and we are better off finding other solutions there.

Again, solid player. No star. He was the best player to deal this past offseason. Did they get a good haul in the long run? Time will tell.

A. Career .364 OBP and .778 OPS says he would definitely help in this lineup considering the bottom
third is a black hole.

B. Most, if not all of his time would’ve been spent in LF. Chances are good he wouldn’t be injured. Besides that, he’s not out for the season anyway.

I can agree he was the best player to deal because he should’ve brought the best haul of MLB ready talent, and time wouldn’t have to tell if the returned players can even reach MLB and perform.

I know it might end up a good return in 3-4 years but we shouldn’t have had to wait that long. By the time these guys can help JJW will be in arbitration years and the Donovan situation all over again. (Barring a risky early extension of JJW).

[11WSChamps]

If you're going with younger cost controlled players then in Donovans case it was a matter of the Cardinals choosing to keep Wetherholt at 2B which was the right move.

Donovan as the organization surmised was not going to be kept as a corner OF or at 3B weighing the option to give further runway to Gorman again cost controlled or looking ahead to perhaps Baez holding down an OF spot again on the cheap.

Thus Donovan as an asset became expendable.

The Cardinals were never going to extend him.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

Sure it's a plan. But what % of starting pitchers develope into good ML pitchers? It's zero if you don't draft for and trade for prospects. Tell me the other offers we got for Donovan? We took the best one.

Keeping Donovan and extending him was the best deal, even though it would have pushed our payroll past $60 million.

While the return is still unknown I disagree keeping Donovan was the right move. I am not disparaging Donovan when I say this - last year is peak Donovan. That's the ceiling. Which is a good player. But not an elite player. And his value derived from being a 120 OPS+ hitter in a middle infield role. Really 2B. STL is stacked in the middle infield with 2 guys likely locked in for years. Unless you think they were going to bench Winn and move Wetherholt over to SS he had no role here.

Add to that STL is looking to have a competitive window opening in 2028 and he is a free agent by then. If you extend him you are essentially paying to going rate and heck they can try to sign him then. Or another player with a similar bat in another position.

I like Donovan. Played hard and shut up. But in a rebuild you are trying to amass talent that is better than "really good". At an under value price point.

[11WSChamps]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

Sure it's a plan. But what % of starting pitchers develope into good ML pitchers? It's zero if you don't draft for and trade for prospects. Tell me the other offers we got for Donovan? We took the best one.

Keeping Donovan and extending him was the best deal, even though it would have pushed our payroll past $60 million.

While the return is still unknown I disagree keeping Donovan was the right move. I am not disparaging Donovan when I say this - last year is peak Donovan. That's the ceiling. Which is a good player. But not an elite player. And his value derived from being a 120 OPS+ hitter in a middle infield role. Really 2B. STL is stacked in the middle infield with 2 guys likely locked in for years. Unless you think they were going to bench Winn and move Wetherholt over to SS he had no role here.

Add to that STL is looking to have a competitive window opening in 2028 and he is a free agent by then. If you extend him you are essentially paying to going rate and heck they can try to sign him then. Or another player with a similar bat in another position.

I like Donovan. Played hard and shut up. But in a rebuild you are trying to amass talent that is better than "really good". At an under value price point.

Good post.