Cijntje

[Carp4Cy]

Do ANY of our minors pitchers have a low walk rate and a high ceiling? Seems like every thread I read here is a high K hitter at Memphis or a high BB pitcher. And aren't K's for hitters and BB's for pitchers climbing across MLB anyway? At what point does this become an acceptable compromise?

[Futuregm2]

Do ANY of our minors pitchers have a low walk rate and a high ceiling? Seems like every thread I read here is a high K hitter at Memphis or a high BB pitcher. And aren't K's for hitters and BB's for pitchers climbing across MLB anyway? At what point does this become an acceptable compromise?

Hitters that face the Cardinals don’t K much. We have by far the lowest K rate in baseball this season.

30. St. Louis Cardinals- 6.4
29. Arizona Diamondbacks- 7.6

A 1.2 K/9 difference. The next biggest difference between 2 spots is 0.4.

[rockondlouie]

I'd like to see them make him ditch throwing from the left side and just concentrate on being a RHP.

He's only 23 yrs old (next month) and his future likely lies in the pen'.

Plenty of time to see if he develops.

[casey1024]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

[Melville]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

[Carp4Cy]

Do ANY of our minors pitchers have a low walk rate and a high ceiling? Seems like every thread I read here is a high K hitter at Memphis or a high BB pitcher. And aren't K's for hitters and BB's for pitchers climbing across MLB anyway? At what point does this become an acceptable compromise?

Hitters that face the Cardinals don’t K much. We have by far the lowest K rate in baseball this season.

30. St. Louis Cardinals- 6.4
29. Arizona Diamondbacks- 7.6

A 1.2 K/9 difference. The next biggest difference between 2 spots is 0.4.

Right. We were also one of the lowest in BB allowed in 2025. We have traditionally focused on control pitching over power pitching and its not working anymore.

And yet despite the change in both MLB norms and organizational targets, we are shocked and horrified (maybe unnecessarily so) when our new power pitchers in MiLB also come with high BB rates. You can have one or the other - we aren't going to be great at both.

[Futuregm2]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

Would they have offered Donovan a QO? He’s never had an OPS above .790 in his career and his bWAR the last 3 years hasn’t topped 3. And he’d be 2 years older. And the QO was like $22 million the past year. More likely a player like him signs an extension by that point anyways though or is traded as he was.

Again, he’s a solid player, but no star.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Do ANY of our minors pitchers have a low walk rate and a high ceiling? Seems like every thread I read here is a high K hitter at Memphis or a high BB pitcher. And aren't K's for hitters and BB's for pitchers climbing across MLB anyway? At what point does this become an acceptable compromise?

Hitters that face the Cardinals don’t K much. We have by far the lowest K rate in baseball this season.

30. St. Louis Cardinals- 6.4
29. Arizona Diamondbacks- 7.6

A 1.2 K/9 difference. The next biggest difference between 2 spots is 0.4.

Right. We were also one of the lowest in BB allowed in 2025. We have traditionally focused on control pitching over power pitching and its not working anymore.

And yet despite the change in both MLB norms and organizational targets, we are shocked and horrified (maybe unnecessarily so) when our new power pitchers in MiLB also come with high BB rates. You can have one or the other - we aren't going to be great at both.

Good observation.

[casey1024]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

[Melville]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

You just proved my point brilliantly.
Thank you for that.
Why was Pujols a 13th round pick?
Because he was a viewed as a long shot by every single MLB team - including the Cardinals.
And they got incredibly lucky with him.
Where are all the other 13th round picks who became STL superstars?
FACT is, about 4% of comp picks become quality MLB starting players.
Think about it.

[DwaininAztec]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

Sure it's a plan. But what % of starting pitchers develope into good ML pitchers? It's zero if you don't draft for and trade for prospects. Tell me the other offers we got for Donovan? We took the best one.

A couple of points on Cijntje's pitching. First, so far this year he is primarily throwing RHed. The control issues in the past, although not great from the RHed side, are terrible from the LHed side. The guy could end up a valuable asset as either a starter or reliever. Until just the last 20 years or so, most pitchers were 5'11 to 6'2" tall, so I would expect him to do well even if his is now considered undersized.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

Sure it's a plan. But what % of starting pitchers develope into good ML pitchers? It's zero if you don't draft for and trade for prospects. Tell me the other offers we got for Donovan? We took the best one.

A couple of points on Cijntje's pitching. First, so far this year he is primarily throwing RHed. The control issues in the past, although not great from the RHed side, are terrible from the LHed side. The guy could end up a valuable asset as either a starter or reliever. Until just the last 20 years or so, most pitchers were 5'11 to 6'2" tall, so I would expect him to do well even if his is now considered undersized.

He is a much stockier build than Hence.

[Ozziesfan41]

Has racked up 20 K's in 18 innings at AA - outstanding.
But a whopping 12 walks as well - which is a huge read flag.
After all, that is now 63 walks in 126 minor league career innings - awful.
And he has hit 18 batters.
He is a long, long way from being an MLB pitcher.
Further, his 5"11' frame is small for a pitcher who pretty much relies solely on power - which is an extreme high-risk factor.
Odds of him ever being a long term quality contributor at the MLB level are small.
Very, very similar to the likes of Hence and Mathews - a lot of hype far exceeding reality.
The Cardinals will desperately need at least 2 from the group of Henderson, Franklin, and Doyle to become solid MLB starting pitchers.
Also need something positive to develop from either Dobbs or Fitts.
Bottom line: acquiring Cijntje was far more of a pipe dream than a true plan.

Sure it's a plan. But what % of starting pitchers develope into good ML pitchers? It's zero if you don't draft for and trade for prospects. Tell me the other offers we got for Donovan? We took the best one.

+1 no one was ever going to trade top tier pitching prospects for Donovan that’s just cards fans overvaluing him as they do with scrappy guys. They went with high volume return including two draft picks and a two risk but potential high reward guys in peete it was a good return

[Futuregm2]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

How in the world can you possibly know that? None of us know! Did you know Pujols was a 13th rounder? Tom Brady was a 6th rounder. Keith Hernandez was a 42nd rounder. Mike Piazza was, I believe , the last player drafted. Melville....I'm sure you're a nice guy.....but do you have any idea how bad it is to be a know-it-all? If this is your opinion.....fine.....nobody is upset with that. But to make it sound like you are the final authority......is annoying at best. Think about it.

While the players you cite, and their associated draft status, did defy the norms, they were much more the exception than the norm. For a player of Donovan’s pedigree, we should’ve gotten more than lottery tickets or draft picks several years from MLB.

Either a young MLB roster player or someone banging on the door in AAA. As in, someone who can help in the somewhat immediate future and has earned their way to the big leagues. I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m just looking at the odds, and they should’ve been better in our favor for that particular trade.

We bought plenty of lottery tickets with all of the other trades, even after eating huge chunks of salary.

Teams aren’t overpaying for a complementary player, which is what Donovan is on a contender.

[Bomber1]

Undersized gimmick/novelty pitcher with poor control. A pitcher who walks that many batters is like prospect hitters that strike out 40+% of the time. Rarely do either translate well to MLB.

Cardinals were fleeced in the Donovan deal with him as the centerpiece. Hopefully they hit on the draft pick or the return is abysmal.

On top of that, Bloom wasted the 5th overall pick in a reliever. Signing Stanek, Urias, and maybe even Dustin May were mistakes and he retained Oli.

Bloom shouldn’t get the A+ report card everyone is giving him so far. Hard to admit, but the best parts of this improved team is still all Mo’s work, and that’s a low bar.

With all due respect......how on God's earth would you have even a small idea how the Donavon trade works out? Did you know that we got two 2nd round picks in the upcoming draft as part of that deal? What if those two picks net 2 all stars? Peete has some good skills. Cjintje has a great arm and an extra great arm if needed. And you have already given up on Doyle after, what.......maybe 30-40 pro innings? Seriously?????? If you are really able to predict this....is there any way you could give me a few stock tips? Or better yet.....I'll call you when the NFL starts and you can give me the winners each week. We'll make a fortune!!!

Actually, they acquired only 1 pick, since they would have had one already when Donovan reached FA.
Also, comp level picks have roughly a 4% chance of ever becoming a quality starting MLB player.
Fact is, the reality is odds are overwhelming against the deal working out well for STL

Fact is, you continue to be wrong while telling everyone you are the only one who is right.

Your assumptions that
1. The Cardinals would have kept Donovan until he reached FA;
2. After allowing Donovan to reach FA that they would have offered him a Qualifying Offer;
are as asinine as could be.

The Cardinals got 2 picks, not one you clown.