If Wetherholt and Doyle don't pan out--Then what? Where do we go from here?

[sikeston bulldog2]

If the 2026 rebuild doesn’t look favorable or bears fruit, then you start the rebuild again in 2027. That’s the problem with this mode. It isn’t ensured to work out in the end.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AGUsRGuZb6k

It’s a crapppp shoot no matter which model you use. Injury and under performance cannot be factored directly into success. They will happen. The question is- which player, and how long.

I think teams like the Dodgers simply saturate their team. Gives them a potential stud and mucho players to choose from.

[Cusecards]

Now that we’ve heard our traditional weekend comedy relief from Bully...Webby can’t be far behind with more laughs?

[Cardinals4Life]

Based on where we are and what we’ve seen you would have to say your scenario would set the organization back significantly. Right now it looks like total dependence on youth development.

I don’t think they will both fail. I do think many on CT have set initial expectations too high.

I am hoping that the organization has a second phase to the rebuild. This phase would include increasing payroll and adding some veterans to a youth filled line up. I may be dreaming.

Could you please detail the 'many on CT that have set initial expectations too high' on Wetherholt . Please give specific examples on what was posted that you deemed 'too high' . Thanks Jatalk

I really don’t won’t to spend the time highlighting examples. But surely you have seen them. Let me generalize a couple of things:

1. Many assume he is in the opening day line up. He has not faced one MLB pitcher and his defensive position is not set in stone. I think he will be there but am not going to be surprised if he starts in AAA.

2. Secondly look at history. Carlson, Walker , Gorman, etc. all supposedly had the talent and intangibles many speak to on this board for JJ. Yet here we go again with JJ with the accolades.

3. Look at the number of posts on CT featuring JJ. It is numerous and 99.99% are counting big on him.

I think he is a great player. I think he will be great. But I’m giving him time.

Doyle is very similar. Many have him in the rotation and some by year end. Some experts think he is a piece for the pen due to mechanics. We will see.

I believe his intangibles and high IQ will set him apart.
JJ was a really elite college player. Those other guys (Carlson, Gorman, and Walker) were all HS kids who were somewhat rushed through, an apparently inept, player development system. They were not developed enough (and especially mentally) for The Show.

If you've watched J.J. play or met him, he is miles ahead of those three, both baseball wise and mentally.
The intangibles are things that all of the metrics and statcast c r a p cannot capture. We need more of this type of IQ on our team.

[cardstatman]

Good baseball teams are made of a LARGE group of above average players.

We need a lot more than Wetherholt and Doyle to work out.

They would just make up for 2024-2025 Gray and either 2022 Goldschmidt or 2022 Arenado.

That's not a 116 win "sure bet" team. It is just another 90-win team at best.

The 2001 Mariners had 10 players with 3.3 bWAR or more, won 116 games, and didn't make to the World Series. Lost 4-1 in the ALCS. Crapshoot. They weren't playing their best when playoff time came.

Interesting team: the 2001 Mariners had traded away Randy Johnson 1998, Ken Griffey Jr 1999, and Alex Rodriguez 2000 in consecutive seasons and then won 116 games without them... but with 10 players with 3.3 bWAR or more.

Brendan Donovan led the 2025 Cardinals with 2.7 bWAR followed by Willson Contreras at 2.5 bWAR, and then Masyn Winn at 2.2 bWAR. OUCH!

The Cardinals are a LONG way away from being a dominant MLB team. However, making the playoffs is a much easier goal and MANY wild card teams have gone all the way to a World Series title simply by getting hot at just the right time... which isn't something you can plan to happen. IMHO, this should be their annual goal and once in a while their 90 win team will win 100.

I do recognize that Central teams have struggled in the playoffs recently. My theory is because they often win with deep pitching staffs and very few star position players. The deep pitching doesn't help in the playoffs since there are too many off days and you only need about 8 good pitchers. Their few star hitters can be pitched around. The rich coastal teams have many highly paid star position players so you can't pitch around them and a few star pitchers... and they may just have gotten lucky, too.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Good baseball teams are made of a LARGE group of above average players.

We need a lot more than Wetherholt and Doyle to work out.

They would just make up for 2024-2025 Gray and either 2022 Goldschmidt or 2022 Arenado.

That's not a 116 win "sure bet" team. It is just another 90-win team at best.

The 2001 Mariners had 10 players with 3.3 bWAR or more, won 116 games, and didn't make to the World Series. Lost 4-1 in the ALCS. Crapshoot. They weren't playing their best when playoff time came.

Interesting team: the 2001 Mariners had traded away Randy Johnson 1998, Ken Griffey Jr 1999, and Alex Rodriguez 2000 in consecutive seasons and then won 116 games without them... but with 10 players with 3.3 bWAR or more.

Brendan Donovan led the 2025 Cardinals with 2.7 bWAR followed by Willson Contreras at 2.5 bWAR, and then Masyn Winn at 2.2 bWAR. OUCH!

The Cardinals are a LONG way away from being a dominant MLB team. However, making the playoffs is a much easier goal and MANY wild card teams have gone all the way to a World Series title simply by getting hot at just the right time... which isn't something you can plan to happen. IMHO, this should be their annual goal and once in a while their 90 win team will win 100.

I do recognize that Central teams have struggled in the playoffs recently. My theory is because they often win with deep pitching staffs and very few star position players. The deep pitching doesn't help in the playoffs since there are too many off days and you only need about 8 good pitchers. Their few star hitters can be pitched around. The rich coastal teams have many highly paid star position players so you can't pitch around them and a few star pitchers... and they may just have gotten lucky, too.

Your last paragraph is nicely written. Good roll up.

[bretto12]

How about we give those guys 2 to 4 years before we worry about them failing. If you expect JJ to make the team, hit .350 and lead them to the WS, then the guy will be a failure to you. I'll take .260 his first year.

Doyle is probably, at least 1 year away, and maybe 2. My hope is that he plays the year at AAA and does not get hurt.

[rockondlouie]

Lotta pressure on these kids coming up (JJW, Doyle, R.R. etal).

The god this is this generation seems to not be phased by "The Show" and aren't as intimidated.

The more I read about JJ, the more I think he's going to have no issues just like M. Winn who wasn't awed by the bright lights either.

Yes, you are correct that JJ is not going to let the hype deter him . Here is why :
St. Louis Cardinals top prospect JJ Wetherholt is widely praised for having the "intangibles"—specifically, an elite work ethic, high-level baseball IQ, and a humble, grounded personality. Beyond his physical tools, these traits include strong mental toughness, a professional approach to the game, and a desire to make the most of his opportunities, which coaches and scouts highlight as elevating his already high-level talent.

It is the above that have baseball people excited about JJ... the 'intangibles' He is very focused and humble type personality . He has handled all the notiriety well since college, being highly drafted, in the minors , and his intangibles impressed the Cardinals brass at last year's ST invite.

Below are more details to his intangibles :

Work Ethic & Mindset: Described as humble and highly motivated, focusing on proving his value to those who believe in him rather than solely on doubters.

High Baseball IQ: Demonstrates advanced in-game decision-making, including excellent swing decisions, pitch recognition, and ability to manipulate the barrel.

Leadership & Poise: Recognized for having "all the necessary intangibles" to succeed at the Major League level, with a high floor due to his maturity and approach to the game.

Versatility: Capable of handling positions at 2B and 3B, adjusting to new roles to maximize team value.

Wetherholt is considered a potential 2026 Opening Day roster candidate for the Cardinals, boasting a high-level hit tool combined with these professional-grade mental attributes.

Yep

I just read the same this morning, kids got some charisma and a strong work ethic.

(And please excuse my sloppy fingers for the stupid typos & poor wording above, I was answering on my iphone instead of my office computer )

[scoutyjones2]

I fully expect bulldog to chime in on this one with some lyrics!!
But seriously, if neither of these guys turn into the 4-5 WAR players we expect
then what is the plan?
Longer, continuous rebuild until they find a nice threesome to play with.
If neither of these guys make it, then this will become the longest drought in Cardinal history.
I'm not saying they won't make it, because I am high on JJ at least.
However, there is a really good chance they don't make it.
If that happens, the farm system was overrated and org has nothing to fall back on.
Because they refuse to spend at market levels.
What they desperately need is a salary cap and revenue sharing.
At this current pace, farm system is the only vehicle to prosperity.

Doyle isn't predicted to be a front of the rotation starter. His scouting reports predicted a reliever. Would that be a failure?

Only about 15% ever get to play an MLB game.

Plus, L'chaim got a plethora of meh suspects/prospects in his deals

[45s]

The future of the club should not be dependent on two guys who may, or may not, be successful.

Build the the organization….build depth……

[craviduce]

I fully expect bulldog to chime in on this one with some lyrics!!
But seriously, if neither of these guys turn into the 4-5 WAR players we expect
then what is the plan?
Longer, continuous rebuild until they find a nice threesome to play with.
If neither of these guys make it, then this will become the longest drought in Cardinal history.
I'm not saying they won't make it, because I am high on JJ at least.
However, there is a really good chance they don't make it.
If that happens, the farm system was overrated and org has nothing to fall back on.
Because they refuse to spend at market levels.
What they desperately need is a salary cap and revenue sharing.
At this current pace, farm system is the only vehicle to prosperity.

Doyle isn't predicted to be a front of the rotation starter. His scouting reports predicted a reliever. Would that be a failure?

Only about 15% ever get to play an MLB game.

Plus, L'chaim got a plethora of meh suspects/prospects in his deals

If he becomes his floor, I'll be very upset. Waste of a #5 overall pick when better options with more of a guarantee to outcome were available. High Risk/High Reward if it's realized. That's the gamble. Safer picks were Irish, Witherspoon....even the HS SS JoJo Parker... I pray he can find in game stamina and season stamina this year and next in the minors.

I'll be watching the velocity on pitches come the 3rd and 4th inning.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

The future of the club should not be dependent on two guys who may, or may not, be successful.

Build the the organization….build depth……

Positional organizational depth.

[45s]

The future of the club should not be dependent on two guys who may, or may not, be successful.

Build the the organization….build depth……

Positional organizational depth.

Collect as many good young players as possible….regardless of position…….the best player available….

Then flip the surplus

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

The future of the club should not be dependent on two guys who may, or may not, be successful.

Build the the organization….build depth……

Positional organizational depth.

Collect as many good young players as possible….regardless of position…….the best player available….

Then flip the surplus

False. Need talented everyday players or you go no where. It’s not hard……

[45s]

The future of the club should not be dependent on two guys who may, or may not, be successful.

Build the the organization….build depth……

Positional organizational depth.

Collect as many good young players as possible….regardless of position…….the best player available….

Then flip the surplus

False. Need talented everyday players or you go no where. It’s not hard……

So….you would really pass on the best player in the draft, regardless of position?

I’m glad you’re not running the organization

[ramfandan]

Based on where we are and what we’ve seen you would have to say your scenario would set the organization back significantly. Right now it looks like total dependence on youth development.

I don’t think they will both fail. I do think many on CT have set initial expectations too high.

I am hoping that the organization has a second phase to the rebuild. This phase would include increasing payroll and adding some veterans to a youth filled line up. I may be dreaming.

Could you please detail the 'many on CT that have set initial expectations too high' on Wetherholt . Please give specific examples on what was posted that you deemed 'too high' . Thanks Jatalk

I really don’t won’t to spend the time highlighting examples. But surely you have seen them. Let me generalize a couple of things:

1. Many assume he is in the opening day line up. He has not faced one MLB pitcher and his defensive position is not set in stone. I think he will be there but am not going to be surprised if he starts in AAA.

2. Secondly look at history. Carlson, Walker , Gorman, etc. all supposedly had the talent and intangibles many speak to on this board for JJ. Yet here we go again with JJ with the accolades.

3. Look at the number of posts on CT featuring JJ. It is numerous and 99.99% are counting big on him.

I think he is a great player. I think he will be great. But I’m giving him time.

Doyle is very similar. Many have him in the rotation and some by year end. Some experts think he is a piece for the pen due to mechanics. We will see.

Posts regarding Wetherholt being on the roster on opening day has come from POBO Bloom and manager Marmol
Both expressed that at the Winter Warm Up . So that is not fan speculation .

Yes, St. Louis Cardinals president of baseball operations Chaim Bloom and manager Oliver Marmol have indicated that top prospect JJ Wetherholt will be given every opportunity to win a spot in the starting lineup for the 2026 Opening Day roster.

Chaim Bloom's Stance: Bloom has been "adamant" that Wetherholt will have the chance to make the Opening Day roster and has praised the infielder's maturity and ability to hit to all fields.
Oli Marmol's View: Marmol confirmed in January 2026 that Wetherholt "definitely has a chance" to make the team, citing his impressive performance in the 2025 spring training and high-pressure situations.
So those two have said everything short of 'yes, Wetherholt will be on the Opening Day roster this year ' as no POBO or manager do that .
They always take the tried and true 'every player must earn a spot' All the other returning Cardinals know that Wetherholt will be on the 2026 opening day roster.
Nothing is guaranteed but those two would not be making those comments if they felt that JJ was slated to start the year in AAA. He has played well in both AA and AAA and they feel he is ready for the majors and they will play him . The surprise would be that he starts the year at AAA.
Many speculate JJ is the reason that Bloom is willing to trade Donovan now as he wants to open up 2nd base spot for Wetherholt if possible .

[ramfandan]

Lotta pressure on these kids coming up (JJW, Doyle, R.R. etal).

The god this is this generation seems to not be phased by "The Show" and aren't as intimidated.

The more I read about JJ, the more I think he's going to have no issues just like M. Winn who wasn't awed by the bright lights either.

Yes, you are correct that JJ is not going to let the hype deter him . Here is why :
St. Louis Cardinals top prospect JJ Wetherholt is widely praised for having the "intangibles"—specifically, an elite work ethic, high-level baseball IQ, and a humble, grounded personality. Beyond his physical tools, these traits include strong mental toughness, a professional approach to the game, and a desire to make the most of his opportunities, which coaches and scouts highlight as elevating his already high-level talent.

It is the above that have baseball people excited about JJ... the 'intangibles' He is very focused and humble type personality . He has handled all the notiriety well since college, being highly drafted, in the minors , and his intangibles impressed the Cardinals brass at last year's ST invite.

Below are more details to his intangibles :

Work Ethic & Mindset: Described as humble and highly motivated, focusing on proving his value to those who believe in him rather than solely on doubters.

High Baseball IQ: Demonstrates advanced in-game decision-making, including excellent swing decisions, pitch recognition, and ability to manipulate the barrel.

Leadership & Poise: Recognized for having "all the necessary intangibles" to succeed at the Major League level, with a high floor due to his maturity and approach to the game.

Versatility: Capable of handling positions at 2B and 3B, adjusting to new roles to maximize team value.

Wetherholt is considered a potential 2026 Opening Day roster candidate for the Cardinals, boasting a high-level hit tool combined with these professional-grade mental attributes.

Yep

I just read the same this morning, kids got some charisma and a strong work ethic.

(And please excuse my sloppy fingers for the stupid typos & poor wording above, I was answering on my iphone instead of my office computer )

No problems with the typos etc. using the phone I have done the same when typing on my iphone. What is good about Wetherholt is that he is not type to hang his head. I think in one interview in offseason he said (paraphrasting) I know in baseball I will go 0 for whatever streak . All players in the majors no matter how talented have those stretches. I won't be any different. It's how baseball works. He doesn't watch the papers with his batting avg. etc. Each time is a new at bat for him . Now some posters on here will start criticizing him if he has a low batting avg. in ST or to start the year. Heck Jackson Chourio started quite weak his first two months with Brewers. They knew he had talent and kept playing him .
He had a big 2nd half of the year and ended with .270 ? batting average.
The think with JJ is just let him play for the full 6 months . Needless to say , there willalways be those who criticize if he starts very low, they will say See, he isn't good OR he was rushed blah blah If he starts hot, the same ones will say Well he will cool off once the pitchers see him more. So don't get too excited. JJ will tune out the negative noise. He knows how it works . He just will play hard and ignore the naysayers.