How many players on our roster are Not part of a competitive future?

[Talkin' Baseball]

If we’re looking for a core MV3 who can post 4-5+ WAR per season, the Cards are close to having that.

Winn has already established himself at a very young age as the premier fielding SS in the NL who still has room to grow offensively. Easy 4+ WAR guy moving forward.

Wetherholt is going to be a 5+ WAR player by 2027.

So who will be the third guy? Not Herrera and Burleson, though they will continue to hit. Their defensive values will limit them to 3 WAR, and that’s okay.

The third guy will be Baez. He will be the best defensive RF we have seen in STL in a while, and he’s going to provide an exciting power/speed combo that will make him a perennial 4-5+ WAR player.

Sorry but Masyn Winn will never be a core MV3 player. He doesn't have near the offensive upside needed to be an aircraft carrier. Love Winn, but he will not ever be that guy.

A defensive star, especially at a premium position, can absolutely be a cornerstone piece of a team, especially if their bat isn't a black hole.

Definitely a good piece for the team, no doubt.
An aircraft carrier? No shot!

Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen were stellar defensively AND carried the offense. Winn isn't that kind of player.

No, he's not an aircraft carrier.

[renostl]

Gotta be honest I think people under value Scott. Scott isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have solid productions from other spots. He has elite defense and elite base running. We only have a few players on the team that fit that profile. Thinking that's just so easy to have is insane. At least he only has one skill he needs to be worked on and just needs to get respectable at. I take Burly do to his very solid contact skills, Winn, Scott, Herrera and J.J. So really just 5 guys and auditions are wide open to find the rest. Sorry to lazy to get into the pitchers

Edmonds had elite defense and MV3 bat. That’s a big part of the difference between a team that is marginally competitive at best and a true WS contender. Sometimes the good is the enemy of the great.

Yes and no. Just depends on your team's makeup. You can have an MV3 at any position. The key is HAVING them. If we had, for example a 3B, LF, and RF that were offensive aircraft carriers, then Scott is fine.
Unfortunately for Scott, practically the entire team was/is full of complimentary players.

Too true. Burly is not the MVP caliber 1B (nor a Pujols /Goldy GG) that we need at 1B. Hes merely serviceable for what needs to be an elite power position on a playoff team. And we have zero power at catcher, shortstop, and centerfield, and while that’s normal, it’s going to limit you to being normal/ average if you can’t sneak in an elite bat at one of those defense premium positions.

So yeah, we could survive no offense from centerfield but it means we have a need of big upgrades at at least four other positions.

A person can sound as though they are talking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time
on this very subject. Nobody on the team is the problem yet everyone is a part of the issue.
I agree with CF and would add SS actually as long as they can be average there then they will be
bringing D, speed, and average hit.

IF players at those positions bring solid hit fantastic but availability is very low.

In a nutshell don't look for unicorn's, Get the power from positions that power is very
probable to occur. At least 1 cOF, 1B, DH, and at least 1 of 2B/3B. Every time we have a 1
dimensional player at one of those positions not bringing their profile then it means less
room for an upgrade. Gorman, Walker, Noot, Donovan, Burleson are all incomplete as
are whoever wins C until the future guys arrive.

That's 5 positions though of incomplete production. IMO, you can't just keep giving
those spots away and say they aren't the problem when they are a part of the problem.

JJ scores one of 2B/3B. Leaving only 4 spots. They need 3 of 4 to happen. Creates an over
reliance on a few that they better guess correct. Maybe Herrera hits in LF or 1B, JJ at 2B/3B
1 or none of Gorman/Walker will hit, IMO no way they score on both those or at least shouldn't
count on both. Which has the best plan B behind it. Baez vs Saggese niether?

It's very close in that maybe both BD and AB should be moved.

[Cardinals4Life]

Gotta be honest I think people under value Scott. Scott isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have solid productions from other spots. He has elite defense and elite base running. We only have a few players on the team that fit that profile. Thinking that's just so easy to have is insane. At least he only has one skill he needs to be worked on and just needs to get respectable at. I take Burly do to his very solid contact skills, Winn, Scott, Herrera and J.J. So really just 5 guys and auditions are wide open to find the rest. Sorry to lazy to get into the pitchers

Edmonds had elite defense and MV3 bat. That’s a big part of the difference between a team that is marginally competitive at best and a true WS contender. Sometimes the good is the enemy of the great.

Yes and no. Just depends on your team's makeup. You can have an MV3 at any position. The key is HAVING them. If we had, for example a 3B, LF, and RF that were offensive aircraft carriers, then Scott is fine.
Unfortunately for Scott, practically the entire team was/is full of complimentary players.

Too true. Burly is not the MVP caliber 1B (nor a Pujols /Goldy GG) that we need at 1B. Hes merely serviceable for what needs to be an elite power position on a playoff team. And we have zero power at catcher, shortstop, and centerfield, and while that’s normal, it’s going to limit you to being normal/ average if you can’t sneak in an elite bat at one of those defense premium positions.

So yeah, we could survive no offense from centerfield but it means we have a need of big upgrades at at least four other positions.

A person can sound as though they are talking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time
on this very subject. Nobody on the team is the problem yet everyone is a part of the issue.
I agree with CF and would add SS actually as long as they can be average there then they will be
bringing D, speed, and average hit.

IF players at those positions bring solid hit fantastic but availability is very low.

In a nutshell don't look for unicorn's, Get the power from positions that power is very
probable to occur. At least 1 cOF, 1B, DH, and at least 1 of 2B/3B. Every time we have a 1
dimensional player at one of those positions not bringing their profile then it means less
room for an upgrade. Gorman, Walker, Noot, Donovan, Burleson are all incomplete as
are whoever wins C until the future guys arrive.

That's 5 positions though of incomplete production. IMO, you can't just keep giving
those spots away and say they aren't the problem when they are a part of the problem.

JJ scores one of 2B/3B. Leaving only 4 spots. They need 3 of 4 to happen. Creates an over
reliance on a few that they better guess correct. Maybe Herrera hits in LF or 1B, JJ at 2B/3B
1 or none of Gorman/Walker will hit, IMO no way they score on both those or at least shouldn't
count on both. Which has the best plan B behind it. Baez vs Saggese niether?

It's very close in that maybe both BD and AB should be moved.

JJW and Herrera are going to be 2 plus offensive pieces.

Burleson is a good complimentary piece.

Scott and Winn are acceptable at their positions.

This leaves us needing an aircraft carrier at 3B, LF, RF, and DH (or 1B.....Burleson could fill one and and then we find bigtime production at the other spots).

I think the Cards are good up the middle, especially if Herrera sticks at C. Burley a good complimentary piece. This still leaves a lot of needed production. Baez in a year? Maybe. But the Cards are going to have to acquire this offensive production. We do not have it now.

[renostl]

Gotta be honest I think people under value Scott. Scott isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have solid productions from other spots. He has elite defense and elite base running. We only have a few players on the team that fit that profile. Thinking that's just so easy to have is insane. At least he only has one skill he needs to be worked on and just needs to get respectable at. I take Burly do to his very solid contact skills, Winn, Scott, Herrera and J.J. So really just 5 guys and auditions are wide open to find the rest. Sorry to lazy to get into the pitchers

Edmonds had elite defense and MV3 bat. That’s a big part of the difference between a team that is marginally competitive at best and a true WS contender. Sometimes the good is the enemy of the great.

Yes and no. Just depends on your team's makeup. You can have an MV3 at any position. The key is HAVING them. If we had, for example a 3B, LF, and RF that were offensive aircraft carriers, then Scott is fine.
Unfortunately for Scott, practically the entire team was/is full of complimentary players.

Too true. Burly is not the MVP caliber 1B (nor a Pujols /Goldy GG) that we need at 1B. Hes merely serviceable for what needs to be an elite power position on a playoff team. And we have zero power at catcher, shortstop, and centerfield, and while that’s normal, it’s going to limit you to being normal/ average if you can’t sneak in an elite bat at one of those defense premium positions.

So yeah, we could survive no offense from centerfield but it means we have a need of big upgrades at at least four other positions.

A person can sound as though they are talking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time
on this very subject. Nobody on the team is the problem yet everyone is a part of the issue.
I agree with CF and would add SS actually as long as they can be average there then they will be
bringing D, speed, and average hit.

IF players at those positions bring solid hit fantastic but availability is very low.

In a nutshell don't look for unicorn's, Get the power from positions that power is very
probable to occur. At least 1 cOF, 1B, DH, and at least 1 of 2B/3B. Every time we have a 1
dimensional player at one of those positions not bringing their profile then it means less
room for an upgrade. Gorman, Walker, Noot, Donovan, Burleson are all incomplete as
are whoever wins C until the future guys arrive.

That's 5 positions though of incomplete production. IMO, you can't just keep giving
those spots away and say they aren't the problem when they are a part of the problem.

JJ scores one of 2B/3B. Leaving only 4 spots. They need 3 of 4 to happen. Creates an over
reliance on a few that they better guess correct. Maybe Herrera hits in LF or 1B, JJ at 2B/3B
1 or none of Gorman/Walker will hit, IMO no way they score on both those or at least shouldn't
count on both. Which has the best plan B behind it. Baez vs Saggese niether?

It's very close in that maybe both BD and AB should be moved.

JJW and Herrera are going to be 2 plus offensive pieces.

Burleson is a good complimentary piece.

Scott and Winn are acceptable at their positions.

This leaves us needing an aircraft carrier at 3B, LF, RF, and DH (or 1B.....Burleson could fill one and and then we find bigtime production at the other spots).

I think the Cards are good up the middle, especially if Herrera sticks at C. Burley a good complimentary piece. This still leaves a lot of needed production. Baez in a year? Maybe. But the Cards are going to have to acquire this offensive production. We do not have it now.

VS or Church need to be near average in CF with the bat or it not
good, only ok.

I find it difficult to think Herrera sticks at C and that's not all on him.
Crooks, Bernal, and Rodriguez exist unless one of those project better at an
alternative position, I'm not sure I understand other than there's time. Seems
that it an opportunity for him to emerge at one of 1B/LF/RF and be more
of a plus there than the perceived incumbents.

Easily wrong. Impossible for me to have a strong stance when predicting the future.

[imetsatchelpaige]

Depends on your definition of "competitive." But I'll assume you mean division or NLCS and play.

Position players?
23-24.

Assume BD is history.
Winn, JJ, Herrera.
Maybe Burleson.
Too early to tell on catcher-who or how good they will be.

[Youboughtit]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

I think the following guys will be part of the core going forward:

Wetherholt
Winn
Herrera
Scott
Burleson
Saggese - as a Donovan type piece
Liberatore - as a #2/3
McGreevy - as a #3/4

Guys who aren't:
Romero
Pages
Pozo
Nootbaar
Donovan (only if he gets traded)
Pallante
Bruihl
Stanek
Fernandez
May
Fermin

Unsure:
Walker
Crooks
Gorman (leaning towards NO)
Dobbins
Fitz
Church

Bullpen Guys: (Who knows year to year?)
Graceffo
O'Brien
Svanson - probably though
Leahy - likely
Granillo
Pushard
Raquet

I think we have as many as 8 locks as core pieces, but possibly more depending on some guys' seasons (notably Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Dobbins, and Fitz).

I think we have around 10 who are likely placeholders or future trade pieces (Donovan, Romero, Noot, May, Stanek, Pages).

Even with our "locks", we are going to have to add bigtime reinforcements from outside the organization. I can see Wetherholt and Herrera as tent pole guys, but Winn, Scott, and Burleson are complimentary pieces (although, very good ones to have).

We could still have some more internal help soon (Baez, Rodriguez, Bernal, etc, but that wont be for a few seasons.

Pitching wise, we have Doyle coming as hopefully a legit ace. Mathews hopefully as a strong piece, as well as perhaps Roby (if ever healthy). Then there are others farther away. Our pitching depth in the minors is a good thing as it will give us some security and depth, as well as possible trade chips to acquire missing pieces from the lineup.

I think in a year or 2, we will still need to add 1 legit starter and probably 2 bats from FA or trade.

If you had the following in a year or 2, I think this would be a contender:

Acquired Ace
Doyle
Liberatore
Mathews
McGreevy

Wetherholt (2B)
Herrera (C/DH)
Scott II (CF)
Burleson (1B/DH)
Legit Hitter Addition (LF)
Legit Hitter Addition (3B)
Saggese (UT)
Winn (SS)
Baez (RF)
Bernal/Crooks (C)
Church (OF)
Rodriguez (DH)


What are everyone's thoughts?

Interesting we aquired 18 pitchers and you don’t think any of them are better than the 4 already in the system. May I ask why? I think some of them like Clarke are better than all but Doyle. What a horrible off season if they are not.

[Cardinals4Life]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

I think the following guys will be part of the core going forward:

Wetherholt
Winn
Herrera
Scott
Burleson
Saggese - as a Donovan type piece
Liberatore - as a #2/3
McGreevy - as a #3/4

Guys who aren't:
Romero
Pages
Pozo
Nootbaar
Donovan (only if he gets traded)
Pallante
Bruihl
Stanek
Fernandez
May
Fermin

Unsure:
Walker
Crooks
Gorman (leaning towards NO)
Dobbins
Fitz
Church

Bullpen Guys: (Who knows year to year?)
Graceffo
O'Brien
Svanson - probably though
Leahy - likely
Granillo
Pushard
Raquet

I think we have as many as 8 locks as core pieces, but possibly more depending on some guys' seasons (notably Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Dobbins, and Fitz).

I think we have around 10 who are likely placeholders or future trade pieces (Donovan, Romero, Noot, May, Stanek, Pages).

Even with our "locks", we are going to have to add bigtime reinforcements from outside the organization. I can see Wetherholt and Herrera as tent pole guys, but Winn, Scott, and Burleson are complimentary pieces (although, very good ones to have).

We could still have some more internal help soon (Baez, Rodriguez, Bernal, etc, but that wont be for a few seasons.

Pitching wise, we have Doyle coming as hopefully a legit ace. Mathews hopefully as a strong piece, as well as perhaps Roby (if ever healthy). Then there are others farther away. Our pitching depth in the minors is a good thing as it will give us some security and depth, as well as possible trade chips to acquire missing pieces from the lineup.

I think in a year or 2, we will still need to add 1 legit starter and probably 2 bats from FA or trade.

If you had the following in a year or 2, I think this would be a contender:

Acquired Ace
Doyle
Liberatore
Mathews
McGreevy

Wetherholt (2B)
Herrera (C/DH)
Scott II (CF)
Burleson (1B/DH)
Legit Hitter Addition (LF)
Legit Hitter Addition (3B)
Saggese (UT)
Winn (SS)
Baez (RF)
Bernal/Crooks (C)
Church (OF)
Rodriguez (DH)


What are everyone's thoughts?

Interesting we aquired 18 pitchers and you don’t think any of them are better than the 4 already in the system. May I ask why? I think some of them like Clarke are better than all but Doyle. What a horrible off season if they are not.

Well I have Fitts and Dobbins in the unsure category.

I think May will be a trade piece. I don't think he figures into the next core. More of a placeholder that could buy time for Mathews and bring back more prospect capital.

Guys like Pushard, Bruihl, Stanek, Blewitt are just BP/depth filler, not longterm guys.

Then you have Clarke, Fajardo, Aita who are farther away. I don't know that they'll be in the plans in 1 or 2 years yet.

What other Ps am I missing? (I know there are some more.)