How many players on our roster are Not part of a competitive future?

[Carp4Cy]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

[Shady]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

The development of the young pitchers will be as much of a factor as anything.

[Cusecards]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

Good synopsis:
2026 will certainly need to address a number of questions.
I like Scott for his tools but his plate discipline needs major work.
Is 2026 make or break for Gorman/Walker/Noot?
JJ hopefully is a keeper.
Some good Catchers in the pipeline and Josh Baez could make some noise.
2026 certainly won’t lack for intrigue!

[Carp4Cy]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

The development of the young pitchers will be as much of a factor as anything.

Historically we need a lot more position players to be developed than pitchers. If we can develop one ace, it’s not as hard to fill in serviceable SPs and relief pitchers from other orgs on short term contracts while they are still good. Look at our veteran heavy rotations in the early 2000s. Position players have much longer shelf lives than pitchers.

Even Verlander and Scherzer played for a lot more teams in their careeers than a Yadi or Pujols or Harper or Trout or most other HOF level position players. Wainwright and Kershaw were certainly anomalies but still they were hurt a lot more years than Yadi or Pujols.

[Cardinals4Life]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

I think the following guys will be part of the core going forward:

Wetherholt
Winn
Herrera
Scott
Burleson
Saggese - as a Donovan type piece
Liberatore - as a #2/3
McGreevy - as a #3/4

Guys who aren't:
Romero
Pages
Pozo
Nootbaar
Donovan (only if he gets traded)
Pallante
Bruihl
Stanek
Fernandez
May
Fermin

Unsure:
Walker
Crooks
Gorman (leaning towards NO)
Dobbins
Fitz
Church

Bullpen Guys: (Who knows year to year?)
Graceffo
O'Brien
Svanson - probably though
Leahy - likely
Granillo
Pushard
Raquet

I think we have as many as 8 locks as core pieces, but possibly more depending on some guys' seasons (notably Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Dobbins, and Fitz).

I think we have around 10 who are likely placeholders or future trade pieces (Donovan, Romero, Noot, May, Stanek, Pages).

Even with our "locks", we are going to have to add bigtime reinforcements from outside the organization. I can see Wetherholt and Herrera as tent pole guys, but Winn, Scott, and Burleson are complimentary pieces (although, very good ones to have).

We could still have some more internal help soon (Baez, Rodriguez, Bernal, etc, but that wont be for a few seasons.

Pitching wise, we have Doyle coming as hopefully a legit ace. Mathews hopefully as a strong piece, as well as perhaps Roby (if ever healthy). Then there are others farther away. Our pitching depth in the minors is a good thing as it will give us some security and depth, as well as possible trade chips to acquire missing pieces from the lineup.

I think in a year or 2, we will still need to add 1 legit starter and probably 2 bats from FA or trade.

If you had the following in a year or 2, I think this would be a contender:

Acquired Ace
Doyle
Liberatore
Mathews
McGreevy

Wetherholt (2B)
Herrera (C/DH)
Scott II (CF)
Burleson (1B/DH)
Legit Hitter Addition (LF)
Legit Hitter Addition (3B)
Saggese (UT)
Winn (SS)
Baez (RF)
Bernal/Crooks (C)
Church (OF)
Rodriguez (DH)


What are everyone's thoughts?

[TheFantasyStud]

We already have the offensive core

Herrera
Burleson
Wetherholt
Winn
Saggese
Walker
Scott
Baez
Gorman

That’s it. What we all better pray as that walker, Scott and Gorman reach their potential.

Down the road Bernal or Rodriquez will replace Herrera at catcher and Herrera will find a new spot.

What the cards are doing is loading up on pitching to strike lightning. It’s a better gamble to have lots of pitching prospects.

[2ninr]

Squandering our pitching prospects than having to buy pitching was the nail in the coffin of the Mo era.

[Shady]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

The development of the young pitchers will be as much of a factor as anything.

Historically we need a lot more position players to be developed than pitchers. If we can develop one ace, it’s not as hard to fill in serviceable SPs and relief pitchers from other orgs on short term contracts while they are still good. Look at our veteran heavy rotations in the early 2000s. Position players have much longer shelf lives than pitchers.

Even Verlander and Scherzer played for a lot more teams in their careeers than a Yadi or Pujols or Harper or Trout or most other HOF level position players. Wainwright and Kershaw were certainly anomalies but still they were hurt a lot more years than Yadi or Pujols.

To be really successful as a MLB team. A team built for the playoffs. ideally, you have three stud starting pitchers. Can the Cardinals develop that scenario from what they currently have in the organization? Those type pitchers are awfully expensive to try to acquire in free agency.

[Carp4Cy]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

The development of the young pitchers will be as much of a factor as anything.

Historically we need a lot more position players to be developed than pitchers. If we can develop one ace, it’s not as hard to fill in serviceable SPs and relief pitchers from other orgs on short term contracts while they are still good. Look at our veteran heavy rotations in the early 2000s. Position players have much longer shelf lives than pitchers.

Even Verlander and Scherzer played for a lot more teams in their careeers than a Yadi or Pujols or Harper or Trout or most other HOF level position players. Wainwright and Kershaw were certainly anomalies but still they were hurt a lot more years than Yadi or Pujols.

To be really successful as a MLB team. A team built for the playoffs. ideally, you have three stud starting pitchers. Can the Cardinals develop that scenario from what they currently have in the organization? Those type pitchers are awfully expensive to try to acquire in free agency.

Lackey wasn’t expensive. Neither was Q. There’s always someone out there to help if you are smart.

We need Doyle to pan out and Libby to get better. Then one of McGreevey or Matthews to be long term option. But it’s also OK and often beneficial to have 30+ yo veterans starters in the playoffs.

[imyourhuckleberry]

I suppose it depends on your timeframe of the competitive window. For me, it's 2028, so...

Scott: Probably. As a 5th OF, defensive replacement, pinch runner
Winn: Certainly. Will be the 1st or 2nd player extended once the new CBA is in place.
Burly: Almost certainly. He's improved every season. No reason to think that won't continue.
JJ: Certainly
Walker: I'd like to say yes, but I suspect no.
Gorman: Ditto Walker
Donny: 70\30 he's gone. But if he 's still here on opening day, I say 70\30 he stays
Saggesse: Just a guy. No.
Baez: Too soon to tell. Needs to prove last year wasn't a fluke
Pages: No. Too many more talented catchers coming. He'll have a nice career as an 8 or 9 team backup.
Rodriguez: yes. Will just be hitting the scene.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Haven't you heard? We will never be competitive again.

[TopofthePerch]

Gotta be honest I think people under value Scott. Scott isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have solid productions from other spots. He has elite defense and elite base running. We only have a few players on the team that fit that profile. Thinking that's just so easy to have is insane. At least he only has one skill he needs to be worked on and just needs to get respectable at. I take Burly do to his very solid contact skills, Winn, Scott, Herrera and J.J. So really just 5 guys and auditions are wide open to find the rest. Sorry to lazy to get into the pitchers

[TopofthePerch]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

I think the following guys will be part of the core going forward:

Wetherholt
Winn
Herrera
Scott
Burleson
Saggese - as a Donovan type piece
Liberatore - as a #2/3
McGreevy - as a #3/4

Guys who aren't:
Romero
Pages
Pozo
Nootbaar
Donovan (only if he gets traded)
Pallante
Bruihl
Stanek
Fernandez
May
Fermin

Unsure:
Walker
Crooks
Gorman (leaning towards NO)
Dobbins
Fitz
Church

Bullpen Guys: (Who knows year to year?)
Graceffo
O'Brien
Svanson - probably though
Leahy - likely
Granillo
Pushard
Raquet

I think we have as many as 8 locks as core pieces, but possibly more depending on some guys' seasons (notably Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Dobbins, and Fitz).

I think we have around 10 who are likely placeholders or future trade pieces (Donovan, Romero, Noot, May, Stanek, Pages).

Even with our "locks", we are going to have to add bigtime reinforcements from outside the organization. I can see Wetherholt and Herrera as tent pole guys, but Winn, Scott, and Burleson are complimentary pieces (although, very good ones to have).

We could still have some more internal help soon (Baez, Rodriguez, Bernal, etc, but that wont be for a few seasons.

Pitching wise, we have Doyle coming as hopefully a legit ace. Mathews hopefully as a strong piece, as well as perhaps Roby (if ever healthy). Then there are others farther away. Our pitching depth in the minors is a good thing as it will give us some security and depth, as well as possible trade chips to acquire missing pieces from the lineup.

I think in a year or 2, we will still need to add 1 legit starter and probably 2 bats from FA or trade.

If you had the following in a year or 2, I think this would be a contender:

Acquired Ace
Doyle
Liberatore
Mathews
McGreevy

Wetherholt (2B)
Herrera (C/DH)
Scott II (CF)
Burleson (1B/DH)
Legit Hitter Addition (LF)
Legit Hitter Addition (3B)
Saggese (UT)
Winn (SS)
Baez (RF)
Bernal/Crooks (C)
Church (OF)
Rodriguez (DH)


What are everyone's thoughts?

I actually agree 100 percent. That's why it's important that we get a return for Donovan, Nootbar, and Romero. This whole model will be based off player development and will have a higher chance of success with a good crop of players to develop.

[Carp4Cy]

Gotta be honest I think people under value Scott. Scott isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have solid productions from other spots. He has elite defense and elite base running. We only have a few players on the team that fit that profile. Thinking that's just so easy to have is insane. At least he only has one skill he needs to be worked on and just needs to get respectable at. I take Burly do to his very solid contact skills, Winn, Scott, Herrera and J.J. So really just 5 guys and auditions are wide open to find the rest. Sorry to lazy to get into the pitchers

Edmonds had elite defense and MV3 bat. That’s a big part of the difference between a team that is marginally competitive at best and a true WS contender. Sometimes the good is the enemy of the great.

[Cardinals4Life]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

I think the following guys will be part of the core going forward:

Wetherholt
Winn
Herrera
Scott
Burleson
Saggese - as a Donovan type piece
Liberatore - as a #2/3
McGreevy - as a #3/4

Guys who aren't:
Romero
Pages
Pozo
Nootbaar
Donovan (only if he gets traded)
Pallante
Bruihl
Stanek
Fernandez
May
Fermin

Unsure:
Walker
Crooks
Gorman (leaning towards NO)
Dobbins
Fitz
Church

Bullpen Guys: (Who knows year to year?)
Graceffo
O'Brien
Svanson - probably though
Leahy - likely
Granillo
Pushard
Raquet

I think we have as many as 8 locks as core pieces, but possibly more depending on some guys' seasons (notably Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Dobbins, and Fitz).

I think we have around 10 who are likely placeholders or future trade pieces (Donovan, Romero, Noot, May, Stanek, Pages).

Even with our "locks", we are going to have to add bigtime reinforcements from outside the organization. I can see Wetherholt and Herrera as tent pole guys, but Winn, Scott, and Burleson are complimentary pieces (although, very good ones to have).

We could still have some more internal help soon (Baez, Rodriguez, Bernal, etc, but that wont be for a few seasons.

Pitching wise, we have Doyle coming as hopefully a legit ace. Mathews hopefully as a strong piece, as well as perhaps Roby (if ever healthy). Then there are others farther away. Our pitching depth in the minors is a good thing as it will give us some security and depth, as well as possible trade chips to acquire missing pieces from the lineup.

I think in a year or 2, we will still need to add 1 legit starter and probably 2 bats from FA or trade.

If you had the following in a year or 2, I think this would be a contender:

Acquired Ace
Doyle
Liberatore
Mathews
McGreevy

Wetherholt (2B)
Herrera (C/DH)
Scott II (CF)
Burleson (1B/DH)
Legit Hitter Addition (LF)
Legit Hitter Addition (3B)
Saggese (UT)
Winn (SS)
Baez (RF)
Bernal/Crooks (C)
Church (OF)
Rodriguez (DH)


What are everyone's thoughts?

I actually agree 100 percent. That's why it's important that we get a return for Donovan, Nootbar, and Romero. This whole model will be based off player development and will have a higher chance of success with a good crop of players to develop.

Thanks, TOtP!

Agree. Obviously some of these guys could falter/progress, but I think this is a pretty good estimate of what the Cards brass is thinking.
Guys like Winn and Scott are perfectly fine being defense-first guys on a team with proven bats (eith around league average production).

Still think Gorman/Walker are HUGE question marks as to whether they are part of the future or not. This year should give us some clarity.

[Cardinals4Life]

So many of our players are JAGs/filler/warm bodies/easily replaceable. And many of the position player prospects don’t profile much better:

Siani - already gone
Nado/ Willson - also gone
Scott-serviceable I guess, but far from a game changing contributor
Winn- we keep him , but he’s not AS level, yet
Burly - Same as Winn, but also might we worth trading IF we can get a plus player at a position of great need.
JJW. That’s one we can hopefully build around. But don’t expect him to be Pujols or Witt or Soto or Judge level MOTOB.
Walker/Gorman? How many years is it gonna take to see what we’ve got?
Donny - probably gets traded. And for what?
Sagesse - another warm body, easily replaced
Baez - what is his likely ceiling anyway? Maybe he profiles as a serviceable starter at best but is he a plus player? Most MVP candidates were further along at this point in their careers.
Pages - probably not a starter for a playoff team
RaRod- a long ways away

Still having a hard time envisioning a Pujols/Drew/Renteria/Sanders/Matheny type Core
Or a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds/Yadi roster.

The development of the young pitchers will be as much of a factor as anything.

Historically we need a lot more position players to be developed than pitchers. If we can develop one ace, it’s not as hard to fill in serviceable SPs and relief pitchers from other orgs on short term contracts while they are still good. Look at our veteran heavy rotations in the early 2000s. Position players have much longer shelf lives than pitchers.

Even Verlander and Scherzer played for a lot more teams in their careeers than a Yadi or Pujols or Harper or Trout or most other HOF level position players. Wainwright and Kershaw were certainly anomalies but still they were hurt a lot more years than Yadi or Pujols.

To be really successful as a MLB team. A team built for the playoffs. ideally, you have three stud starting pitchers. Can the Cardinals develop that scenario from what they currently have in the organization? Those type pitchers are awfully expensive to try to acquire in free agency.

I think we will need to acquire 1.
Hopefully Doyle can be a #1 or #2.
Hopefully Mathews as a #3.
Liberatore, McGreevy can round out the rotation.

Then you still have Roby, Dobbins, Fitz, Henderson, Mautz, Hence, Hjerpe in the pipeline, plus others further down. It is nice to have a big supply of arms.