Pirates ahead of us

[11WSChamps]

Pirates will be better.

How better? Not sure. Sometimes you can’t just add up WAR.

But we’ll see if they take over STL

They won’t be better guaranteed. People knee jerk and freak out over the silliest early offseason moves. Cards are going to be much better than people think and they will say oh I didn’t think they would be good I’m happily eating crow even though they whined and cried the entire off season and were raging and bawling it will be hilarious to see all the crow eating

You're going to be wrong.

Nah I won’t be wrong

Im sure some more moves are coming but Gray is gone and so is Contreras .

No objection to them being moved but you still have to put a team on the field.

The Pirates are moving forward tge Cardinals will be stuck in second gear for some time.

Sonny gray had a 4.28 ERA that’s not super impossible to replace or for a starter to produce near it where the team will improve will be upgrading on pallante mikolas and Fedde who were disasters this won’t be hard with all of the starters he has brought in and will bring in and if any of them are sucking he will replace them because he actually has the depth to do so. Even if they trade Donovan JJ should be able to replace his 50 RBI and 64 runs and could do even better. I don’t see bloom sticking with Gorman all season once he shows he still sucks and if Gorman and walker aren’t total disasters like last season the offense will be improved. Bloom will be bringing in at least one bat probably two bats Contreras hit 20 home runs and drove in 80 that’s not impossible to replace. People act like they are trading superstars they aren’t they are trading mid players who won’t be that difficult to replace and others who are very easy to not only replace but upgrade a lot from

What depth?

Contreras wasn't a "superstar" but he was arguably the best run producer we had and you still have to replace Gray's innings. These two won't be an easy upgrade, and we don't know what Wetherholts going to be in year one.

You're making a lot of assumptions and few if any of those is going to come to fruition.

They have may liebratore McGreevy pallante lehay Matthew’s Hansen fitts dobbins Henderson mautz all battling for rotation spots with the rest at Memphis ready to be called up that’s 11 starters and he said he’s looking at bringing in another veteran starter also. It’s hilarious people act like the cardinals are breaking up a dynasty by trading two mid players and making a lot of assumptions that everything is going to go wrong and nothing or very few things will go right.

What's hilarious is listening to people who get all bent out of shape because somebody has a different slant on this.

Gray and Contreras are more productive than their replacements are going to be.

The other thing is you make the same mistake a lot of people here do by mistaking numbers for depth. That's what happened last year remember?

lol what depth did they have last season? They had 5 starters for 5 spots and mcgreevy was the only real depth they had in the minors they have 11 starters and are still going to bring in more this offseason. The reason they couldn’t dump Fedde mikolas and pallante is because they had no depth I don’t get where people think they had depth last season

No no that's not what the well wishers said.

They mentioned Roberse, Graceffo , Roby, Rom etc.

Yeah crazy isnt it?

lol anyone who thought those guys were depth were way overrating them and didn’t pay attention rom missed all of 2024 with injury and a large portion of 2025 so I don’t know why they were counting on him to do anything roby started the year at AA I don’t know why anyone was seeing him as depth when he would still have to be called up to AAA and only be called up toward the end of the season graceffo was a reliever so don’t know why anyone thought he depth for the rotation. Like I said people who thought they were depth were confused

The question remains what makes you believe the team will be better this season despite shedding players who were productive last season and will be hard to replace given the tactics being used at this time to "rebuild" this team?

[Ozziesfan41]

They won’t be better guaranteed. People knee jerk and freak out over the silliest early offseason moves. Cards are going to be much better than people think and they will say oh I didn’t think they would be good I’m happily eating crow even though they whined and cried the entire off season and were raging and bawling it will be hilarious to see all the crow eating

You're going to be wrong.

Nah I won’t be wrong

Im sure some more moves are coming but Gray is gone and so is Contreras .

No objection to them being moved but you still have to put a team on the field.

The Pirates are moving forward tge Cardinals will be stuck in second gear for some time.

Sonny gray had a 4.28 ERA that’s not super impossible to replace or for a starter to produce near it where the team will improve will be upgrading on pallante mikolas and Fedde who were disasters this won’t be hard with all of the starters he has brought in and will bring in and if any of them are sucking he will replace them because he actually has the depth to do so. Even if they trade Donovan JJ should be able to replace his 50 RBI and 64 runs and could do even better. I don’t see bloom sticking with Gorman all season once he shows he still sucks and if Gorman and walker aren’t total disasters like last season the offense will be improved. Bloom will be bringing in at least one bat probably two bats Contreras hit 20 home runs and drove in 80 that’s not impossible to replace. People act like they are trading superstars they aren’t they are trading mid players who won’t be that difficult to replace and others who are very easy to not only replace but upgrade a lot from

What depth?

Contreras wasn't a "superstar" but he was arguably the best run producer we had and you still have to replace Gray's innings. These two won't be an easy upgrade, and we don't know what Wetherholts going to be in year one.

You're making a lot of assumptions and few if any of those is going to come to fruition.

They have may liebratore McGreevy pallante lehay Matthew’s Hansen fitts dobbins Henderson mautz all battling for rotation spots with the rest at Memphis ready to be called up that’s 11 starters and he said he’s looking at bringing in another veteran starter also. It’s hilarious people act like the cardinals are breaking up a dynasty by trading two mid players and making a lot of assumptions that everything is going to go wrong and nothing or very few things will go right.

What's hilarious is listening to people who get all bent out of shape because somebody has a different slant on this.

Gray and Contreras are more productive than their replacements are going to be.

The other thing is you make the same mistake a lot of people here do by mistaking numbers for depth. That's what happened last year remember?

lol what depth did they have last season? They had 5 starters for 5 spots and mcgreevy was the only real depth they had in the minors they have 11 starters and are still going to bring in more this offseason. The reason they couldn’t dump Fedde mikolas and pallante is because they had no depth I don’t get where people think they had depth last season

No no that's not what the well wishers said.

They mentioned Roberse, Graceffo , Roby, Rom etc.

Yeah crazy isnt it?

lol anyone who thought those guys were depth were way overrating them and didn’t pay attention rom missed all of 2024 with injury and a large portion of 2025 so I don’t know why they were counting on him to do anything roby started the year at AA I don’t know why anyone was seeing him as depth when he would still have to be called up to AAA and only be called up toward the end of the season graceffo was a reliever so don’t know why anyone thought he depth for the rotation. Like I said people who thought they were depth were confused

The question remains what makes you believe the team will be better this season despite shedding players who were productive last season and will be hard to replace given the tactics being used at this time to "rebuild" this team?

You think gray and his 4.28 ERA is going to be hard to replace and pallante mikolas and feddes combined 17-36 record will be hard to be improved upon and Contreras 20 home run and 80 RBI will be hard to replace I don’t think it will be. You act like the offseason is over and the season is over it’s not. Bloom will have payroll about what it was last season right now he’s shedding contracts so he has money to spend on improving the team. You will see bloom laid his plan very clearly and people seem to be just ignoring everything he said

[11WSChamps]

Where did I say the offsesson was over?

And yes theyvwill be hard to replace.

[Ozziesfan41]

Where did I say the offsesson was over?

And yes theyvwill be hard to replace.

No they won’t

[mattmitchl44]

Yes, the Pirates might be ahead of the Cardinals as of right now for 2026. But neither of them might make the playoffs.

[ScotchMIrish]

The pirates are definitely making better deals than we are. With our "someday in the future" approach, how many years will the Bucs be ahead of us in the final standings of the year?

Pirates were facing problems with payroll not matching revenue sharing as we approach the end of the collective bargaining contract. I suspect that's why they added.

[An Old Friend]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

[ecleme22]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

[An Old Friend]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

[ecleme22]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

[An Old Friend]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Two days ago:

The Cards' behavior does support your theory.

Now you're back to debating it. That's fine.

You used a terrible debate tactic when we talked about it then, saying:

When the 2012-2013 Cubs drastically lowered their payroll, I could've also said it's because they were now becoming a smaller market team.

Arguing that the CHICAGO CUBS were becoming a SMALL MARKET TEAM would be one of the dumbest positions anyone could possibly take in ANY baseball discussion.

St Louis is now a small market in baseball and receiving revenue share. Their media value has cratered. It's OK to acknowledge that.

[ecleme22]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Two days ago:

The Cards' behavior does support your theory.

Now you're back to debating it. That's fine.

You used a terrible debate tactic when we talked about it then, saying:

When the 2012-2013 Cubs drastically lowered their payroll, I could've also said it's because they were now becoming a smaller market team.

Arguing that the CHICAGO CUBS were becoming a SMALL MARKET TEAM would be one of the dumbest positions anyone could possibly take in ANY baseball discussion.

St Louis is now a small market in baseball and receiving revenue share. Their media value has cratered. It's OK to acknowledge that.

Every rebuilding team does what the cards are doing now.

Your theory about them now becoming a small market team has no proof to it. Only the way you are trying to infer the word ‘reset.’

[Cusecards]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Agree
I myself wouldn’t label it a “rebuild” but more like a “reset”.
But those are just terms and subject to debate.
I see a “rebuild” as being more of a tear down.
Don’t see that as the case.
Moving on from vets who are aging and past their prime is what a lot of teams do on a regular basis.

[ecleme22]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Agree
I myself wouldn’t label it a “rebuild” but more like a “reset”.
But those are just terms and subject to debate.
I see a “rebuild” as being more of a tear down.
Don’t see that as the case.
Moving on from vets who are aging and past their prime is what a lot of teams do on a regular basis.

Well there you go. ‘Reset’ can be exactly what you said. ‘Reset’ can be a softer rebuild, or simply the FO wanting to use a softer word to describe a dreaded rebuild to fans.

[An Old Friend]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Two days ago:

The Cards' behavior does support your theory.

Now you're back to debating it. That's fine.

You used a terrible debate tactic when we talked about it then, saying:

When the 2012-2013 Cubs drastically lowered their payroll, I could've also said it's because they were now becoming a smaller market team.

Arguing that the CHICAGO CUBS were becoming a SMALL MARKET TEAM would be one of the dumbest positions anyone could possibly take in ANY baseball discussion.

St Louis is now a small market in baseball and receiving revenue share. Their media value has cratered. It's OK to acknowledge that.

Every rebuilding team does what the cards are doing now.

Your theory about them now becoming a small market team has no proof to it. Only the way you are trying to infer the word ‘reset.’

The hell you mean "no proof"?

You're really gonna dispute that the Cardinals became a NET RECEIVER for revenue sharing for the first time EVER?
You're really gonna dispute the fact that their media / cable deal went up in smoke with the Bally's bankruptcy?
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/A ... irst-time/

The St. Louis Cardinals will “be a receiver” this winter within the current MLB revenue-sharing system for the first time following a full season in at least 25 years and since the advent of the current program, which began in 1996. The team is eligible for a top-six pick in the upcoming MLB Draft Lottery because they “will be classified as a ‘payee.’

Their ticket sales have dropped 30.6% since the 3.2 million sold in 2023.

The Cardinals had to “rework their broadcast-rights deal” a year ago with partner FanDuel Sports Network at a rate reduced by 23%

The Cardinals have a bottom-five market score

Their rights fees were cut, contract shortened, and NOW the new rightsholder is missing payments.

FOH with no proof. Don't be obtuse. That's a choice you're making. I do low-key love the idea that you'd try to position Chicago as a small market for your argument

[ecleme22]

So how does a team in a total rebuild be better this year than last year?

It’s not a rebuild.

I wish people would understand this.

I understand better than you.

It's a [censored] and has been for several seasons and now it enters the gaslight phase.

If you’re calling it a rebuild, then no, you don’t. It’s an organizational reset, just as they’ve said many times and what they’re showing through execution.

They quickly put together a young, hyper cost controlled rotation, just like they’ve had in Cleveland. They clearly targeted proximal arms that they think can be competitive in the big leagues. And they’ve dramatically slashed their payroll.

They are doing what teams do in a rebuild.

We must have different definitions of rebuild. I don’t consider teams in an early rebuild as teams who are also looking to be competitive.

There are different depths of rebuilds. For instance, the 2025 Cards org wasn’t in the same mess as the 2011 Cubs.

Two days ago:

The Cards' behavior does support your theory.

Now you're back to debating it. That's fine.

You used a terrible debate tactic when we talked about it then, saying:

When the 2012-2013 Cubs drastically lowered their payroll, I could've also said it's because they were now becoming a smaller market team.

Arguing that the CHICAGO CUBS were becoming a SMALL MARKET TEAM would be one of the dumbest positions anyone could possibly take in ANY baseball discussion.

St Louis is now a small market in baseball and receiving revenue share. Their media value has cratered. It's OK to acknowledge that.

Every rebuilding team does what the cards are doing now.

Your theory about them now becoming a small market team has no proof to it. Only the way you are trying to infer the word ‘reset.’

The hell you mean "no proof"?

You're really gonna dispute that the Cardinals became a NET RECEIVER for revenue sharing for the first time EVER?
You're really gonna dispute the fact that their media / cable deal went up in smoke with the Bally's bankruptcy?
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/A ... irst-time/

The St. Louis Cardinals will “be a receiver” this winter within the current MLB revenue-sharing system for the first time following a full season in at least 25 years and since the advent of the current program, which began in 1996. The team is eligible for a top-six pick in the upcoming MLB Draft Lottery because they “will be classified as a ‘payee.’

Their ticket sales have dropped 30.6% since the 3.2 million sold in 2023.

The Cardinals had to “rework their broadcast-rights deal” a year ago with partner FanDuel Sports Network at a rate reduced by 23%

The Cardinals have a bottom-five market score

Their rights fees were cut, contract shortened, and NOW the new rightsholder is missing payments.

FOH with no proof. Don't be obtuse. That's a choice you're making. I do low-key love the idea that you'd try to position Chicago as a small market for your argument

Yeah, there’s no proof. Only the way you are interpreting ‘reset.’

The Cards have been in a soft rebuild (reset) for a little over a year now.

Only since Bloom took over are they really making big boy decisions and making trades.

It’s a rebuild, buddy.

They will trade BD, NA, and maybe JoJo and Noot.

They will sign a few more 1 year vets to hopefully flip at the deadline.

By next offseason , the transformation will be near complete. From there, they will start spending on FA. Sorry, Cease prob won’t be available