Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
"It's the opposite" and "it isn't really that broken" are contradictory.
You're getting a little bit closer to the truth with your last sentence though. Keep going!
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
"It's the opposite" and "it isn't really that broken" are contradictory.
You're getting a little bit closer to the truth with your last sentence though. Keep going!
The two are not mutually exclusive, I get what you are stating though. No system will ever be completely perfect. Good luck trying to sell Cards fans on a more socialist type MLB TV structure or economic structure. Maybe the biggest downfall of Cards baseball and MLB is that. Everyone for themselves, right? Dodgers fans don't really think that way, they are in it together and want what is best for everyone, at least from my experience.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
There are 5 teams in California which has a population of around 40M, 3 teams and 25M people in southern California.
There are 2 teams in Missouri with a population of around 6.5M
Historically, the Cardinals owned the southern Midwest, but Colorado, Kansas City, Texas, Houston, and Atlanta have existed for quite a while now. There are fewer and fewer Cardinal fans in those markets. Obviously, these distant fans aren't going to attend a Tuesday night game and probably won't make more than one or two weekend trips to see a game either. Most of them can no longer watch the Cardinals on TV nightly. Radios aren't really a thing anymore and the Cardinals broadcast are blocked from internet radio anyway. They have a dozen home shopping channels but no Cardinals channel. If they can't watch or listen regularly, they stop being fans and they won't be coming to St Louis to watch some games and spend money there.
Interesting that you believe "Cardinal fan types" kill economies. You seem a bit closed minded to other people's different ways of living.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
"It's the opposite" and "it isn't really that broken" are contradictory.
You're getting a little bit closer to the truth with your last sentence though. Keep going!
The two are not mutually exclusive, I get what you are stating though. No system will ever be completely perfect. Good luck trying to sell Cards fans on a more socialist type MLB TV structure or economic structure. Maybe the biggest downfall of Cards baseball and MLB is that. Everyone for themselves, right? Dodgers fans don't really think that way, they are in it together and want what is best for everyone, at least from my experience.
NFL and NHL are pretty balanced. I'm rooting for a lockout if rules aren't changed. Player's salaries have caught up enough the past 25 years.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
There are 5 teams in California which has a population of around 40M, 3 teams and 25M people in southern California.
There are 2 teams in Missouri with a population of around 6.5M
Historically, the Cardinals owned the southern Midwest, but Colorado, Kansas City, Texas, Houston, and Atlanta have existed for quite a while now. There are fewer and fewer Cardinal fans in those markets. Obviously, these distant fans aren't going to attend a Tuesday night game and probably won't make more than one or two weekend trips to see a game either. Most of them can no longer watch the Cardinals on TV nightly. Radios aren't really a thing anymore and the Cardinals broadcast are blocked from internet radio anyway. They have a dozen home shopping channels but no Cardinals channel. If they can't watch or listen regularly, they stop being fans and they won't be coming to St Louis to watch some games and spend money there.
Interesting that you believe "Cardinal fan types" kill economies. You seem a bit closed minded to other people's different ways of living.
Fair enough, I absolutely shouldn't stereotype folks and their ways, you are right that is closed minded and not right. I will find a way to repent. Just saying nobody wants to love in rural Arkansas, West Virginia or Southern Illinois anymore and would rather go to places like LA, New York, Denver or major cities in Texas, Florida, Georgia etc., Yup they want baseball and fun too, so there will be expansion and relocation there. This is not the fourm or place to talk about such things but there is a huge reason the NFL/ NBA will grow and thrive along with the Dodgers and St. Louis and West Virginia won't.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
"It's the opposite" and "it isn't really that broken" are contradictory.
You're getting a little bit closer to the truth with your last sentence though. Keep going!
The two are not mutually exclusive, I get what you are stating though. No system will ever be completely perfect. Good luck trying to sell Cards fans on a more socialist type MLB TV structure or economic structure. Maybe the biggest downfall of Cards baseball and MLB is that. Everyone for themselves, right? Dodgers fans don't really think that way, they are in it together and want what is best for everyone, at least from my experience.
NFL and NHL are pretty balanced. I'm rooting for a lockout if rules aren't changed. Player's salaries have caught up enough the past 25 years.
I'm certainly not arguing this. Baseball is for everyone, it's for kids and a pastime to get through the day. Back in the day our great grandparents treated our sports heroes to discount groceries and a friendly smile and genuine caring about their families and lives. Today the love is 10s and hundreds of millions. That's capitalism and what Cards fans fight for, maybe the hardest of all fans. So deal with it.
bretto12 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 08:39 am
The difference is not star power, it is population base. The Dodgers make more in local TV money than the Card's do from all sources. The team had a bad year and the "Cardinal Fans" stopped going to the games. The best fans in baseball deserted their team. At least 20 of the MLB teams can not spend like the Dodgers. What the players need to realize is that if they allow a payroll cap and floor, they will still get their money. It just won't be in NY or LA.
They may get their 25 million a year in KC or Minnesota, but they will still get it and the competition created by balanced salaries will lead to more teams competing and that means more TV money and packed stadiums which will generate even more money for salaries.
You’re right about Tv. But think beyond that. What is the most popular baseball cap in Japan? Dodgers or Cardinals?
I don't think baseball cap sales in Japan will decline because of a baseball salary cap.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
What in the holy hell are you even talking about?
I doubt he even knows. He’s either on some sort of street drug or his blood sugar is being poorly regulated.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
What in the holy hell are you even talking about?
Not sure if we are allowed to conversate about such things, but this topic has passed and it's about luxury tax. THE PEOPLE OF HOLLYWOOD CAN AND DO AFFORD A LUXURY TAX AND HAVE WORLD CHAMPS TO ROOT FOR! The people of rural West Virginia, Kansas, Arkansas etc are whining about their luxury tax being hire than the whole payroll of the Cards. So root for the rural West Virginia team as i want to compete with the Dodgers! I'm not "talking" I'm posting about economics and the structures of economics. Which you lose at like you do at baseball!
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
What in the holy hell are you even talking about?
Not sure if we are allowed to conversate about such things, but this topic has passed and it's about luxury tax. THE PEOPLE OF HOLLYWOOD CAN AND DO AFFORD A LUXURY TAX AND HAVE WORLD CHAMPS TO ROOT FOR! The people of rural West Virginia, Kansas, Arkansas etc are whining about their luxury tax being higher than the whole payroll of the Cards. So root for the rural West Virginia team as i want to compete with the Dodgers! I'm not "talking" I'm posting about economics and the structures of economics. Which you lose at like you do at baseball!
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
There are 5 teams in California which has a population of around 40M, 3 teams and 25M people in southern California.
There are 2 teams in Missouri with a population of around 6.5M
Historically, the Cardinals owned the southern Midwest, but Colorado, Kansas City, Texas, Houston, and Atlanta have existed for quite a while now. There are fewer and fewer Cardinal fans in those markets. Obviously, these distant fans aren't going to attend a Tuesday night game and probably won't make more than one or two weekend trips to see a game either. Most of them can no longer watch the Cardinals on TV nightly. Radios aren't really a thing anymore and the Cardinals broadcast are blocked from internet radio anyway. They have a dozen home shopping channels but no Cardinals channel. If they can't watch or listen regularly, they stop being fans and they won't be coming to St Louis to watch some games and spend money there.
Interesting that you believe "Cardinal fan types" kill economies. You seem a bit closed minded to other people's different ways of living.
I don't know how you could have set that out more clearly. St. Louis cannot generate the same amount of revenue as LA because of the difference in market size. The Cardinals can compete on attendance, albeit, Dodgers stadium has seating capacity of 56,000 compared to Busch of 44,500. So even there, with a sell out at each stadium, the Dodgers have almost a 1 million ticket sale advantage. The TV market share/revenue is a hurdle the Cardinals can never overcome. The Dewitts could do a few things to improve it some. But, they are not going to overcome a 6X hurdle.
I don't think the players will ever agree to a salary cap. If there was one, where would it be set at? $250M? $300M? How does deferred money get accounted for? I think there are two things baseball could do, first and the easiest, is international draft so Dodgers can't just grab next great player from Japan. Second and I have not seen this discussed before, but in addition to the luxury tax, teams lose draft picks and the luxury tax goes directly to the teams that pick up the draft pick as part of their draft pool money. Not sure exactly how it would work. But $25M over, lose a 4th round pick, $50M over lose third and fourth round pick. $75 million second, third and fourth round, $100M top 4 picks. Those picks then get awarded in a lottery to all the teams that are under the luxury tax, with the provision that they cannot win the lottery two years in a row. Just an idea to try and put more competitive balance back in baseball.
Poojols wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 22:31 pm
Yes, baseball is broken. The only people who refuse that fact are either fans of those few large markets or complete idiots.
No, it's the opposite! Dodgers fans showed up 4 million strong, root like crazy ( in a fun and happy way) people love their players and management, love baseball and pay big bucks to see it.
The system isn't really that broken, you "best fans in baseball" are. Yeah, Cards could definitely use a TV deal like that.
Dodgers drew 4 million in an area of maybe 14M to 18M people with a peaking team.
Cardinals drew 2.5 million in an area of maybe 3M people with a cratering team. Okay, be honest, it was 2.5M tickets but 1.5M people .
This huge difference shows up most strongly in Monday to Thursday games... which is around half of the games.
Working people aren't often going drive over an hour to attend a weeknight game.
They would watch on TV, but MLB is rarely on TV outside of St Louis unless you pay for a package.
There are 3 teams in Southern California. The Cards have historically owned the Southern Midwest and still have fans in lots of other places around the Midwest. Maybe if Cardinals fan types didn't kill economies and adopted a more fun loving and open type mindset you wouldn't destroy St. Louis either and more fans would show up during the week.
There are 5 teams in California which has a population of around 40M, 3 teams and 25M people in southern California.
There are 2 teams in Missouri with a population of around 6.5M
Historically, the Cardinals owned the southern Midwest, but Colorado, Kansas City, Texas, Houston, and Atlanta have existed for quite a while now. There are fewer and fewer Cardinal fans in those markets. Obviously, these distant fans aren't going to attend a Tuesday night game and probably won't make more than one or two weekend trips to see a game either. Most of them can no longer watch the Cardinals on TV nightly. Radios aren't really a thing anymore and the Cardinals broadcast are blocked from internet radio anyway. They have a dozen home shopping channels but no Cardinals channel. If they can't watch or listen regularly, they stop being fans and they won't be coming to St Louis to watch some games and spend money there.
Interesting that you believe "Cardinal fan types" kill economies. You seem a bit closed minded to other people's different ways of living.
I don't know how you could have set that out more clearly. St. Louis cannot generate the same amount of revenue as LA because of the difference in market size. The Cardinals can compete on attendance, albeit, Dodgers stadium has seating capacity of 56,000 compared to Busch of 44,500. So even there, with a sell out at each stadium, the Dodgers have almost a 1 million ticket sale advantage. The TV market share/revenue is a hurdle the Cardinals can never overcome. The Dewitts could do a few things to improve it some. But, they are not going to overcome a 6X hurdle.
I don't think the players will ever agree to a salary cap. If there was one, where would it be set at? $250M? $300M? How does deferred money get accounted for? I think there are two things baseball could do, first and the easiest, is international draft so Dodgers can't just grab next great player from Japan. Second and I have not seen this discussed before, but in addition to the luxury tax, teams lose draft picks and the luxury tax goes directly to the teams that pick up the draft pick as part of their draft pool money. Not sure exactly how it would work. But $25M over, lose a 4th round pick, $50M over lose third and fourth round pick. $75 million second, third and fourth round, $100M top 4 picks. Those picks then get awarded in a lottery to all the teams that are under the luxury tax, with the provision that they cannot win the lottery two years in a row. Just an idea to try and put more competitive balance back in baseball.
THIS!!!!!
I do disagree some though because this is baseball not purely economics. If the Cards fans showed up 3+ million strong and loved their club like the Dodgers, they can definitely compete, did and have done so. Then we can find and get some MVPs, reload instead of "rebuild" and have a model that just about everyone can love.
Yeah let's have a great debate on how to fix the system, but do we really want to because then more teams will be better and have more of a shot. The Cardinals (when really drawing well) benefit from this system.
bretto12 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 08:39 am
The difference is not star power, it is population base. The Dodgers make more in local TV money than the Card's do from all sources. The team had a bad year and the "Cardinal Fans" stopped going to the games. The best fans in baseball deserted their team. At least 20 of the MLB teams can not spend like the Dodgers. What the players need to realize is that if they allow a payroll cap and floor, they will still get their money. It just won't be in NY or LA.
They may get their 25 million a year in KC or Minnesota, but they will still get it and the competition created by balanced salaries will lead to more teams competing and that means more TV money and packed stadiums which will generate even more money for salaries.
Fans did not bail based on a bad record. It was the arrogance and stubbornness of DeWitt and Mo that ran the fans off. Had they handled this differently the fan base would have supported the team through the lean years.
