In my opinion it's defense first

[Cranny]

If that's the case, why was the Cardinals minor league system recently rated so high?

Because Bloom has been working on it and fixed it over the last two years, but of course you knew that but still have to be a toady footstool for Mo.

Well, let's see Rock. The Springfield Cardinals had a terrific season in 2025. They were 88-50. Four key plyers on that team were Leo Bernal Josh Baez, Ixan Henderson, and Brysen Mautz. Bernal and Baez came into the organization in 2021. Bernal just won the minor league Gold Glove Award. Mautz was drafted in 2022. Mautz was drafted in 2023. Both Henderson and Mautz had ERAs in the 2s as starters. Let's see, who was the POBO when those players were selected?

Again

Bloom has been repairing Mo's broken farm system for the past two years, what don't you understand?

That's a nothing answer, Rock. Two different things - bringing players into the system and developing those players.
I agree that the development needed to be improved, and it's happening. But my question to you was -
who was the POBO when those 4 players were brought into the system?

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

[OldRed]

Because Bloom has been working on it and fixed it over the last two years, but of course you knew that but still have to be a toady footstool for Mo.

Well, let's see Rock. The Springfield Cardinals had a terrific season in 2025. They were 88-50. Four key plyers on that team were Leo Bernal Josh Baez, Ixan Henderson, and Brysen Mautz. Bernal and Baez came into the organization in 2021. Bernal just won the minor league Gold Glove Award. Mautz was drafted in 2022. Mautz was drafted in 2023. Both Henderson and Mautz had ERAs in the 2s as starters. Let's see, who was the POBO when those players were selected?

Again

Bloom has been repairing Mo's broken farm system for the past two years, what don't you understand?

That's a nothing answer, Rock. Two different things - bringing players into the system and developing those players.
I agree that the development needed to be improved, and it's happening. But my question to you was -
who was the POBO when those 4 players were brought into the system?

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

[Cranny]

Well, let's see Rock. The Springfield Cardinals had a terrific season in 2025. They were 88-50. Four key plyers on that team were Leo Bernal Josh Baez, Ixan Henderson, and Brysen Mautz. Bernal and Baez came into the organization in 2021. Bernal just won the minor league Gold Glove Award. Mautz was drafted in 2022. Mautz was drafted in 2023. Both Henderson and Mautz had ERAs in the 2s as starters. Let's see, who was the POBO when those players were selected?

Again

Bloom has been repairing Mo's broken farm system for the past two years, what don't you understand?

That's a nothing answer, Rock. Two different things - bringing players into the system and developing those players.
I agree that the development needed to be improved, and it's happening. But my question to you was -
who was the POBO when those 4 players were brought into the system?

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

[OldRed]

Again

Bloom has been repairing Mo's broken farm system for the past two years, what don't you understand?

That's a nothing answer, Rock. Two different things - bringing players into the system and developing those players.
I agree that the development needed to be improved, and it's happening. But my question to you was -
who was the POBO when those 4 players were brought into the system?

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

[Cranny]

That's a nothing answer, Rock. Two different things - bringing players into the system and developing those players.
I agree that the development needed to be improved, and it's happening. But my question to you was -
who was the POBO when those 4 players were brought into the system?

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

Paul Goldschmidt goes from an OPS of .981 to an OPS of .716 over 24 months?
Nolan Arenado goes from an OPS of .891 to an OPS of .666 over 36 months?
Jordan Walker goes from an OPS of .787 to an OPS of .584 over 24 months?
Nolan Gorman goes from an OPS of .805 to an OPS of .666 over 24 months?
Takoah Roby goes down with TJ?
Tink Hence is injured?
Sem Robberse goes down with TJ?
Quinn Mathews loses his control after being named Minor League Pitcher of the Year?

Did any CT poster predict any of those things, Red?

[sikeston bulldog2]

Huh?

The minor league system has made it's jump in the ratings thanks to the great work Bloom did rebuilding/staffing the minor league system that was a complete and utter mess under Mo.

And he also had a hand in the past two drafts.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand when it comes to Mo, then fine.

But the majority of Cardinals fans realize he's the reason (along w/BDWJr) the franchise finds itself in the hole they're now in.

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

Paul Goldschmidt goes from an OPS of .981 to an OPS of .716 over 24 months?
Nolan Arenado goes from an OPS of .891 to an OPS of .666 over 36 months?
Jordan Walker goes from an OPS of .787 to an OPS of .584 over 24 months?
Nolan Gorman goes from an OPS of .805 to an OPS of .666 over 24 months?
Takoah Roby goes down with TJ?
Tink Hence is injured?
Sem Robberse goes down with TJ?
Quinn Mathews loses his control after being named Minor League Pitcher of the Year?

Did any CT poster predict any of those things, Red?

What does any of this got to do with drafting developing and transition to ML. We do two of these well. Thus been noted. Transition no.

We have not produced a household name in over a decade. About as long as it’s been since our last WS appearance.

[Cranny]

One last thing, Rock. I very carefully selected those Springfield players because they were brought in before the last 2 drafts.

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

Paul Goldschmidt goes from an OPS of .981 to an OPS of .716 over 24 months?
Nolan Arenado goes from an OPS of .891 to an OPS of .666 over 36 months?
Jordan Walker goes from an OPS of .787 to an OPS of .584 over 24 months?
Nolan Gorman goes from an OPS of .805 to an OPS of .666 over 24 months?
Takoah Roby goes down with TJ?
Tink Hence is injured?
Sem Robberse goes down with TJ?
Quinn Mathews loses his control after being named Minor League Pitcher of the Year?

Did any CT poster predict any of those things, Red?

What does any of this got to do with drafting developing and transition to ML. We do two of these well. Thus been noted. Transition no.

We have not produced a household name in over a decade. About as long as it’s been since our last WS appearance.

And where have we normally drafted, SB? Household names generally come from the top 10 picks in the draft. Up until the last 2 years, how many times have we had a top 10 draft pick this century.

[cardstatman]

The Cardinals acquire/develop/transition totals are definitely odd!

None of the best 80 position players by fWAR over the past 10 years were Cardinal farmhands. That's awful. NO STARS!
13 of the next 120 players were Cardinal farm products (not counting Peralta who the Cards tried as a pitcher). That's awesome!

Best position players coming through the Cardinals system for 2016-2025 production
Rank fWAR Player
85 17.3 Tommy Edman
88 16.9 Tommy Pham
94 16.0 Harrison Bader
99 15.5 Randy Arozarena
112 14.2 Matt Carpenter
114 14.1 Yadier Molina
122 13.5 Kolten Wong
148 11.5 David Peralta - this is a stretch
153 11.2 Tyler O'Neill
159 10.9 Adolis Garcia
163 10.7 Randall Grichuk
165 10.5 Paul DeJong
175 10.1 Brendan Donovan
199 8.9 Lars Nootbar

[OldRed]

And they're lucky to have had the benefit of TWO YEARS under C. Bloom's player development system, any success they have will be to hsi staffs credit............NOT MO's.

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

Paul Goldschmidt goes from an OPS of .981 to an OPS of .716 over 24 months?
Nolan Arenado goes from an OPS of .891 to an OPS of .666 over 36 months?
Jordan Walker goes from an OPS of .787 to an OPS of .584 over 24 months?
Nolan Gorman goes from an OPS of .805 to an OPS of .666 over 24 months?
Takoah Roby goes down with TJ?
Tink Hence is injured?
Sem Robberse goes down with TJ?
Quinn Mathews loses his control after being named Minor League Pitcher of the Year?

Did any CT poster predict any of those things, Red?

What does any of this got to do with drafting developing and transition to ML. We do two of these well. Thus been noted. Transition no.

We have not produced a household name in over a decade. About as long as it’s been since our last WS appearance.

And where have we normally drafted, SB? Household names generally come from the top 10 picks in the draft. Up until the last 2 years, how many times have we had a top 10 draft pick this century.

Not true.

[cardstatman]

Best Pitchers by fWAR from 2016-2025

Rank fWAR Pitcher
29 20.9 Lance Lynn
37 18.2 Sandy Alcantara
43 17.8 Michael Wacha
47 17.5 Zac Gallen
53 17.1 Jack Flaherty
61 15.3 Miles Mikolas - foreign FA
73 14.2 Adam Wainwright
113 10.3 Marco Gonzales
122 10.1 Carlos Martinez
151 8.2 Luke Weaver

[renostl]

Best Pitchers by fWAR from 2016-2025

Rank fWAR Pitcher
29 20.9 Lance Lynn
37 18.2 Sandy Alcantara
43 17.8 Michael Wacha
47 17.5 Zac Gallen
53 17.1 Jack Flaherty
61 15.3 Miles Mikolas - foreign FA
73 14.2 Adam Wainwright
113 10.3 Marco Gonzales
122 10.1 Carlos Martinez
151 8.2 Luke Weaver

Not attempting to change those facts.
How's that compare to other teams?

There are some recent examples of ex-Cardinals sprinkled throughout both
All-star rosters and playoff rosters. Single season WAR might provide a different insight. Career WAR in
your example has 21 WAR is #29 in that time frame. A real who's who in baseball exist in the top 20.
Again in agreement the Cards have 0.

HOF players are fantastic. For teams a window of production is also great. The team may not even
re-sign those players past their seasons of production.

But prime #29-#73 would make a nice rotation.

[WLTFE]

Imagine spending all the time on this thread constantly making excuses and defending Mo-ran with shifting arguments. Mozo the Clowns legacy should be obvious with the huge drop in attendance and enthusiasm. But I did hear he has a beautiful family!

[Cranny]

And what about all the players the system has drafted and developed well over the years Mo was in charge? Have you forgotten those?

Who. Who have we drafted then developed into a household name. Have we forgotten them. Who again?

Gee, I don’t know, SB. Maybe guys like Wong, Wacha, Gonzalez, DeJong, Helsley, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Winn, Burleson, Herrera, Nootbaar, etc. To name a few.

That is a poor list, just name a few. Of that list Winn is about the only Cardinal to have a real chance to be a star. Herrera and Burleson on the outside with no real place to play in the field.

You don't think Helsley was a star? In 2024 he led MLB in saves. You don't think Gallen became a star? He won the Cy Young.

Helsley will be playing for his third team in two years. Gallen did not win a Cy Young with the Cardinals. This organization has been very poor at developing star quality players and then keeping them in the last 10 years. Defend Mo all you want, I'm so glad he is gone. One good season does make a player a star.

I don't "defend Mo". I look at the facts and present them. Some could care less - they go with whatever their bias is.

I follow facts as much as you, I just see them in a different shade of Cardinal red.

Paul Goldschmidt goes from an OPS of .981 to an OPS of .716 over 24 months?
Nolan Arenado goes from an OPS of .891 to an OPS of .666 over 36 months?
Jordan Walker goes from an OPS of .787 to an OPS of .584 over 24 months?
Nolan Gorman goes from an OPS of .805 to an OPS of .666 over 24 months?
Takoah Roby goes down with TJ?
Tink Hence is injured?
Sem Robberse goes down with TJ?
Quinn Mathews loses his control after being named Minor League Pitcher of the Year?

Did any CT poster predict any of those things, Red?

What does any of this got to do with drafting developing and transition to ML. We do two of these well. Thus been noted. Transition no.

We have not produced a household name in over a decade. About as long as it’s been since our last WS appearance.

And where have we normally drafted, SB? Household names generally come from the top 10 picks in the draft. Up until the last 2 years, how many times have we had a top 10 draft pick this century.

Not true.

Of course it's true. Take the time to check it out.

[Cranny]

Didn't read it, but it looks like the troll is at it again. Did he use multiple mojis as usual?

[WLTFE]

Didn't read it. .is the liar still claiming he has me on ignore?

[riff raff]

Simp / Troll alert