renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Yeah - I don't think anyone should be saying that the Cardinals HAVE TO trade Gorman (26 next year), Walker (24 next year), etc. Those guys are still under team control for multiple years. The Cardinals should certainly listen if teams want to ask for them to be included in trades that will bring the Cardinals someone they really want in return, but trading them just to get them off the roster would be a mistaken priority.
Who gives a chit a player who doesn’t produce, takes up a spot where another might produce, and has been doing this for years…….is under control???
This wayward fascination with cheap control for dogchit players hoping they morph into something is insanity
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Yeah - I don't think anyone should be saying that the Cardinals HAVE TO trade Gorman (26 next year), Walker (24 next year), etc. Those guys are still under team control for multiple years. The Cardinals should certainly listen if teams want to ask for them to be included in trades that will bring the Cardinals someone they really want in return, but trading them just to get them off the roster would be a mistaken priority.
Who gives a chit a player who doesn’t produce, takes up a spot where another might produce, and has been doing this for years…….is under control???
This wayward fascination with cheap control for dogchit players hoping they morph into something is insanity
Name me that young under control up and coming Cards player who’s been playing in MLB stinking it up……and then turned it around in late 20’s and became some All-Star??? I’ve asked this before…..no one ever answers
PDJ
TO
Bader
Carlson
Thomas
Noot
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Yeah - I don't think anyone should be saying that the Cardinals HAVE TO trade Gorman (26 next year), Walker (24 next year), etc. Those guys are still under team control for multiple years. The Cardinals should certainly listen if teams want to ask for them to be included in trades that will bring the Cardinals someone they really want in return, but trading them just to get them off the roster would be a mistaken priority.
Who gives a chit a player who doesn’t produce, takes up a spot where another might produce, and has been doing this for years…….is under control???
This wayward fascination with cheap control for dogchit players hoping they morph into something is insanity
These aren't just random players. Both Walker and Gorman were highly regarding by all scouting systems as they moved through the minors. They both has seasons in the majors in 2023 that looked like they were on their way to developing into meaningful players for the Cardinals.
This FO has to ask - What happened? and Can we turn these guys around? before deciding whether to trade them or not.
Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 09:26 am
Name me that young under control up and coming Cards player who’s been playing in MLB stinking it up……and then turned it around in late 20’s and became some All-Star??? I’ve asked this before…..no one ever answers
PDJ
TO
Bader
Carlson
Thomas
Noot
Not exactly your scenario - but Ryan Ludwick. Looked to be going nowhere through age 27 until the Cardinals acquired him and his career took off at age 28. Had about six good seasons in him.
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Yeah - I don't think anyone should be saying that the Cardinals HAVE TO trade Gorman (26 next year), Walker (24 next year), etc. Those guys are still under team control for multiple years. The Cardinals should certainly listen if teams want to ask for them to be included in trades that will bring the Cardinals someone they really want in return, but trading them just to get them off the roster would be a mistaken priority.
Who gives a chit a player who doesn’t produce, takes up a spot where another might produce, and has been doing this for years…….is under control???
This wayward fascination with cheap control for dogchit players hoping they morph into something is insanity
These aren't just random players. Both Walker and Gorman were highly regarding by all scouting systems as they moved through the minors. They both has seasons in the majors in 2023 that looked like they were on their way to developing into meaningful players for the Cardinals.
This FO has to ask - What happened? and Can we turn these guys around? before deciding whether to trade them or not.
They weren’t standout studs in the minors
Here’s the answer for FO…..
They hit before the league got a book on them…..the can’t adjust
Gormans head is pulling off the ball most of the time and can’t hit the high FB
Walker has no ability to differentiate pitches and can’t lay off outside slider
These aren’t very complicated thing and you don’t need the most cutting edge advanced farm system to figure out
They players can’t do it…..the end they are not rare….they are not special….most can’t do it in MLB
Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 09:26 am
Name me that young under control up and coming Cards player who’s been playing in MLB stinking it up……and then turned it around in late 20’s and became some All-Star??? I’ve asked this before…..no one ever answers
PDJ
TO
Bader
Carlson
Thomas
Noot
Not exactly your scenario - but Ryan Ludwick. Looked to be going nowhere through age 27 until the Cardinals acquired him and his career took off at age 28. Had about six good seasons in him.
The Cards didn’t fart around with Ludwick for 6 yrs waiting for something
Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 09:26 am
Name me that young under control up and coming Cards player who’s been playing in MLB stinking it up……and then turned it around in late 20’s and became some All-Star??? I’ve asked this before…..no one ever answers
PDJ
TO
Bader
Carlson
Thomas
Noot
Not exactly your scenario - but Ryan Ludwick. Looked to be going nowhere through age 27 until the Cardinals acquired him and his career took off at age 28. Had about six good seasons in him.
The Cards didn’t fart around with Ludwick for 6 yrs waiting for something
It doesn't matter whether he was specifically with the Cardinals or not. He was drafted in 1999, first came to the majors in 2002 with Texas at age 23, never had much success in the majors until the Cardinals brought him back up in 2007 at age 28. Then took off.
Just because a player hasn't become a ML starter by age 25 doesn't mean they can't.
Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 09:26 am
Name me that young under control up and coming Cards player who’s been playing in MLB stinking it up……and then turned it around in late 20’s and became some All-Star??? I’ve asked this before…..no one ever answers
PDJ
TO
Bader
Carlson
Thomas
Noot
Not exactly your scenario - but Ryan Ludwick. Looked to be going nowhere through age 27 until the Cardinals acquired him and his career took off at age 28. Had about six good seasons in him.
The Cards didn’t fart around with Ludwick for 6 yrs waiting for something
It doesn't matter whether he was specifically with the Cardinals or not. He was drafted in 1999, first came to the majors in 2002 with Texas at age 23, never had much success in the majors until the Cardinals brought him back up in 2007 at age 28. Then took off.
Just because a player hasn't become a ML starter by age 25 doesn't mean they can't.
Ludwicks problem was always health he had a significant hip fracture that derailed him and required surgery and a knee injury that required surgery. He was kind of like TO couldn’t ever stay healthy
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Yeah - I don't think anyone should be saying that the Cardinals HAVE TO trade Gorman (26 next year), Walker (24 next year), etc. Those guys are still under team control for multiple years. The Cardinals should certainly listen if teams want to ask for them to be included in trades that will bring the Cardinals someone they really want in return, but trading them just to get them off the roster would be a mistaken priority.
They still make very little, Walker even has an option year and I'd like to him use it starting at Memphis but it appears Oli has other idea w/his recent statements.
No need to deal either just yet unless the offer is too good to pass up (unlikely).
I'm on record as saying Bloom has to listen to almost every player on the major league roster with the exception of I. Hererra (and of course JJW/Doyle down below).
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Rock, Gorman has a slow pitch softball swing. Open stance, only one small hot zone……if he gets his pitch there he’ll launch….great power. But most of the time he’s pulling off with his body and head and the Pitchers know not to pitch to his small sweet spot. Edmonds pointed this out publicly and said he needs to close up and stay on the ball. He tried this early last season. He can’t hit like that. No power. Now if they can somehow completely rewire how he’s been hitting since he was probably 4….perhaps he has a future. Last season he went back to open stance and hit a couple bombs. Thats all he’ll ever be.
Not really GF since a "softball swing" wouldn't even get you drafted let alone to MLB but I get the frustration.
Let's not gloss over he was able to hit 27 HR's in 2023 w/an .805 OPS so we know the talent is there, let's see if Bloom's people can rediscover it before just dumping him for very little return.
If they can't, then cut the cord after 2026 and move on.
But if they do and he returns to hitting 25-30 HR's, then they've got something.
Interesting 3 way trade in BTV, involving the Cardinals/Royals/Astros. not going totally into it, but Cards give up Donovan/Walker to Houston and Nootbaar to KC, while cards get Noah Campbell and Cam Smith. I must admit I kinda like this. Especially the idea of Cam Smith killing the Cubs for a decade or so.
Cardinalss4Ever wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 10:59 am
Interesting 3 way trade in BTV, involving the Cardinals/Royals/Astros. not going totally into it, but Cards give up Donovan/Walker to Houston and Nootbaar to KC, while cards get Noah Campbell and Cam Smith. I must admit I kinda like this. Especially the idea of Cam Smith killing the Cubs for a decade or so.
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Rock, Gorman has a slow pitch softball swing. Open stance, only one small hot zone……if he gets his pitch there he’ll launch….great power. But most of the time he’s pulling off with his body and head and the Pitchers know not to pitch to his small sweet spot. Edmonds pointed this out publicly and said he needs to close up and stay on the ball. He tried this early last season. He can’t hit like that. No power. Now if they can somehow completely rewire how he’s been hitting since he was probably 4….perhaps he has a future. Last season he went back to open stance and hit a couple bombs. Thats all he’ll ever be.
Not really GF since a "softball swing" wouldn't even get you drafted let alone to MLB but I get the frustration.
Let's not gloss over he was able to hit 27 HR's in 2023 w/an .805 OPS so we know the talent is there, let's see if Bloom's people can rediscover it before just dumping him for very little return.
If they can't, then cut the cord after 2026 and move on.
But if they do and he returns to hitting 25-30 HR's, then they've got something.
‘22 89G
.226, .721
‘23 119G
.236, .805
‘24 107G
.203, .671
‘25 111G
.205, .666
As I stated the league figured out Gorman and he can’t adjust. He has ONE swing and if he keeps his head and body on ball and the ball is in his small zone he’ll crush it. But he can’t consistently stay on the ball and the league isn’t teeing it up for him in his zone. Hitting .200 the last 2 season doesn’t scream “I can’t adjust”. This team can’t carry a .200 hitter in the middle of the lineup with poor D
renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm
True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.
I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.
We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.
As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.
This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.
Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.
Let’s give this a try Matt
Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did
You may be right, or you may be not.
Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.
Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.
The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.
The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.
It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.
I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.
One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!
Rock, Gorman has a slow pitch softball swing. Open stance, only one small hot zone……if he gets his pitch there he’ll launch….great power. But most of the time he’s pulling off with his body and head and the Pitchers know not to pitch to his small sweet spot. Edmonds pointed this out publicly and said he needs to close up and stay on the ball. He tried this early last season. He can’t hit like that. No power. Now if they can somehow completely rewire how he’s been hitting since he was probably 4….perhaps he has a future. Last season he went back to open stance and hit a couple bombs. Thats all he’ll ever be.
Not really GF since a "softball swing" wouldn't even get you drafted let alone to MLB but I get the frustration.
Let's not gloss over he was able to hit 27 HR's in 2023 w/an .805 OPS so we know the talent is there, let's see if Bloom's people can rediscover it before just dumping him for very little return.
If they can't, then cut the cord after 2026 and move on.
But if they do and he returns to hitting 25-30 HR's, then they've got something.
‘22 89G
.226, .721
‘23 119G
.236, .805
‘24 107G
.203, .671
‘25 111G
.205, .666
As I stated the league figured out Gorman and he can’t adjust. He has ONE swing and if he keeps his head and body on ball and the ball is in his small zone he’ll crush it. But he can’t consistently stay on the ball and the league isn’t teeing it up for him in his zone. Hitting .200 the last 2 season doesn’t scream “I can’t adjust”. This team can’t carry a .200 hitter in the middle of the lineup with poor D
IMO players that are incomplete or only bring 1 tool
to the game really should be good at the tool that they bring.
IF we were to judge Gorman that way at this point we are being hopeful
that he develops his single tool.
He will not bring speed
He will not field above average
He will not hit for average
His arm was strong but lacked accuracy
Power? he has SLG .400 and .370 the last 2 seasons.
That is Masyn Winn like, who brings other attributes.
He needs to increase his SLG by over 100 points. IF he can
not be projected to do so. Move on.
