New Donovan suitor .. familiar team

[Melville]

https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles ... 5_43184005

That would be interesting to do a 2nd deal with Boston after the Sonny Gray trade. Seems others may have been in the hunt longer but thought I would share this as it was posted tonight.

At one time I thought it was a possibility.
Now with Boston in on everyone including Marte, Bichette, Bregman, Tucker, and Alonso
I kind of think he's on too low of a shelf for them.

Hard to say. After what Bregman has put them through, grabbing Donovan gives them a low cost guy that can play anywhere and allows them to pursue all of the guys you still mentioned while strengthening their team. Now, if we throw in a catcher, Crooks(?), with Donovan, can we get both Payton Tolle and Kyson Witherspoon? If the Cards did that, that would have a completed starting rotation in 2026 including a guy who has TOR potential, albeit, it will take some work.

They could then pivot to trying to land an OF for Contreras. If they can trade Arenado, perhaps they can surprise everyone and use all the money they signed to try and sign one of the Japanese 3B...

Bregman is the next N/A.
Agree with your point.
Strategically, Donovan would be the better move for Boston.
More flexibility, more short term and long term left on the table.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

[Melville]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

Yes, of course.
The status quo of the N/A era is a complete failure.
2026 is an opportunity for a path forward and must be used for strictly that purpose.
Strategically, there is no other logical option.

[mattmitchl44]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

I’m totally muffed. Face first. Nose deep. Any internal replacement for arenado hits no better than he does. Next, none of these light hitting imposters can touch his glove. Whats the issue.

Getting that solid ML average performance for the ML minimum or ARB salaries, which would ultimately allow money to be spent elsewhere is the point.

Production per $ is the key.

[rockondlouie]

The bidding war just keeps getting better and better.

[Goldfan]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

Matt, can a 3b achieve 2 fWAR if very good on D and baserunning but not very good offense?
Or maybe decent offense but not very good D??
Point is this number means about anything you want it to…..
Put up some real production stats for what you expect out these positions.

[sikeston bulldog2]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

I’m totally muffed. Face first. Nose deep. Any internal replacement for arenado hits no better than he does. Next, none of these light hitting imposters can touch his glove. Whats the issue.

Getting that solid ML average performance for the ML minimum or ARB salaries, which would ultimately allow money to be spent elsewhere is the point.

Production per $ is the key.

I get it. It’s about fielding the position based on money. Those internal options are cheaper. But once you attatch money to trade arenado, aren’t you in effect spending just the same.

If you keep him, same money, and he’s a mere place holder for the future.

My issue isn’t keeping him, it’s who you got long term to replace him. I don’t think a team can achieve success without good to great corners.

[Talkin' Baseball]

The bidding war just keeps getting better and better.

Sometime in the next 10 days the "bidding war" needs to produce some new players and not just new speculation. Doing big things comes from recognizing when you are in the moment and meeting it (like barreling a pitch). These next 10 days ARE the moment.

[Goldfan]

The bidding war just keeps getting better and better.

Sometime in the next 10 days the "bidding war" needs to produce some new players and not just new speculation. Doing big things comes from recognizing when you are in the moment and meeting it (like barreling a pitch). These next 10 days ARE the moment.

The music will stop…….everyday that goes by are more opportunities gone

[ScotchMIrish]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

I'm not impressed with some of the analytics stuff especially war whether it's fangraphs or baseball reference doing the calculation.

Saggese lacks the power normally associated with 3B. Gorman strikes out far to much for the limited power he has. 3B is a hole unless Saggese progresses which could very well happen. I'd give 2B to Saggese or Wetherholt - whichever plays better defense. 3B to the other one but Bloom needs to acquire a 3B prospect. Can't have that little offense at 3B.

[2ninr]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

I seriously doubt Gorman or Saggese will hit 9th. That's Scott's place.

Okay 8th. Not many good teams have 3B batting that low in the lineup.

That's Walkers spot. 8th.

[ScotchMIrish]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

I seriously doubt Gorman or Saggese will hit 9th. That's Scott's place.

Okay 8th. Not many good teams have 3B batting that low in the lineup.

That's Walkers spot. 8th.

True unless he reverts to his rookie year. It appears to me several coaches/analytics gurus have gotten inside his head since the promising rookie season.

[2ninr]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

I seriously doubt Gorman or Saggese will hit 9th. That's Scott's place.

Okay 8th. Not many good teams have 3B batting that low in the lineup.

That's Walkers spot. 8th.

True unless he reverts to his rookie year. It appears to me several coaches/analytics gurus have gotten inside his head since the promising rookie season.

Wouldn't that be the best scenario imaginable.

[Whatashame]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

I am not throwing Herrera into any deal. He is our best bet to be an elite bat. BTV has Tolle at 31 and Kyson Witherspoon at 17.7. totaling 48.7. Crooks is 11 and Donovan is 31 totaling 42. Most of these trades so far, veterans for prospects, have given an 8-12M premium for the veteran players. So that seems about right, the Cards give up $42M and receive $48.7M. Ivan Herrera is 23.8. That would be a massive overpay by the Cards to put him in this deal.

I’m not inclined to add Herrera BUT to me Herrera is an issue until we find him a place to play. He’s a RH bat that we don’t have a lot of but where is he going to play. He’s going to give catching another shot but we have catchers coming and they are all better catchers. Is he an OFer? Maybe but he’s never played in the outfield before last year and his few attempts were shaky at best. His best spot might be first base but right now we have Contreras and Burleson ahead of him. Maybe that changes but as of December 2025 we don’t have a position for Herrera to play.

IF and it’s a big if, we could add both Tolle and Witherspoon to out pitching situation in a Donovan trade, I would do a lot to make that happen. A future staff that could have the possible pitching to include Doyle, Franklin, Witherspoon, Tolle, Clarke, Matthews, Fitts, McGreevy, Henderson and others is impressive and a good start.

To have Winn and Wetherholt up the middle is solid. Scott in CF is solid defensively. We have Crooks, Bernal, Rodriguez and maybe Herrera to choose from as catchers. We are looking to fill the corners (1B, 3B, LF, RF).

What I give up today to solidify a pitching staff is peanuts. We are looking at 2027 and possibly 2028 if there’s a labor stoppage.

[mattmitchl44]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

Matt, can a 3b achieve 2 fWAR if very good on D and baserunning but not very good offense?
Or maybe decent offense but not very good D??
Point is this number means about anything you want it to…..
Put up some real production stats for what you expect out these positions.

A player can get to 2+ fWAR different ways - more offense/less defense; more defense/less offense; balance of both.

But run production (offense) and run prevention (defense) both contribute to the team winning games - and that is where "wins" in fWAR comes in.

I gave some examples from last year (Addison Barger or Carlos Correa). You can find other examples from the last few years which may give other ideas of combination that hit about that mark.

[mattmitchl44]

To get both Tolle AND Witherspoon I would add a couple of pieces to go with Donovan. Maybe Herrera or Burleson and a lesser pitching prospect.

That would give us a stable of pitching prospects and a solid infield.
C Crooks/Pages with Bernal/Rodriguez coming
1B Contreras/Burleson
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B Saggese/Gorman

The outfield needs some work but it has for years. Maybe we could take some of the money we will save and finally address the outfield situation. Sounds like Walker will be in RF and Scott in CF. We have needed a RH hitting OFer for years and we have time to address that.

This is only December but when Donovan is moved (hopefully for some pitching), it will start to clear up the direction this team can go.

3B will be a question mark.

If the Cardinals have any notion in their player evaluations that either Gorman or Saggese could be even a 2+ fWAR solid regular for them, their approach to 2026 should still be to start out platooning them at 3B until one or the other, or both, or neither do more to prove themselves. That's precisely what 2026 should be for.

No offense intended but if the Cardinals are using fwar to determine their lineup we have a major problem.

Saggese has more upside but not much power. Gorman strikes out far too much for the little power he is generating. Either would likely be the 9 hitter in the lineup. Best case would be we acquire a good 3B prospect in one of these trades. Maybe for Contreras or Donovan?

fWAR of 2+ is going to be indicative of solid, league average performance over a season. For a 3B, it would be about an Addison Barger or Carlos Correa level of performance from last year.

So, yeah, that will mean something with regard to the productivity they get - however you want to measure it.

Having either Gorman, Saggese, or both demonstrate the capability of solid, ML average performance would be a meaningful development for the organization overall.

I'm not impressed with some of the analytics stuff especially war whether it's fangraphs or baseball reference doing the calculation.

Saggese lacks the power normally associated with 3B. Gorman strikes out far to much for the limited power he has. 3B is a hole unless Saggese progresses which could very well happen. I'd give 2B to Saggese or Wetherholt - whichever plays better defense. 3B to the other one but Bloom needs to acquire a 3B prospect. Can't have that little offense at 3B.

You can certainly decide that you want to specify a preference for how a particular player playing a particular position generates their value/"wins."

But, objectively, you can get value, "wins" for the team, from 3B (and other positions) from run production OR run prevention.

[rockondlouie]

Oh please don't have T. Saggese starting at 3rd base (or 2nd base), he'd be one of the worst hitting 3rd/2nd baseman in MLB.

He's an end of the bench player at best.