Holy Sheet!!!--Cards having preliminary talks to EXTEND Oli Marmol

[Bomber1]

Lol at anyone that thinks could manage the team half as well as Oli. I love watching people's heads explode though. I hope they resign him for 5 years.

I honestly don't know if anyone else could have gotten a better record from this team in 2025. I do know pulling Quintana after 75 pitches and trying to get 2 innings from a closer with a jammed finger was idiotic and he STILL thinks he made the right decisions that night. He did pull starters far too early in 23 and 24, but this year, at least before their epic collapse, I thought he did a much better job managing the BP.

What I DO know is the majority of the fans have no faith in Oli and view him as a remnant of the past regime and do not believe he's done anything to prove he's worthy of an extension at this time. Giving him ANOTHER undeserving extension will do nothing but further alienate the fans and slow the timetable of trust and success they're trying to rebuild.

As far as you Oli apologists go, I have no idea what you see in him that warrants such undeserving loyalty.

Not an Oli apologist at all. I couldn't care less if he were fired today or extended another couple season. This team does not have the talent to compete. Look at the starting rotation and 9 man starting lineup the last couple seasons and tell me with a straight face what manager could actually guide this team into the playoffs, keeping in mind that we sold off our top 2 bullpen arms at the trade deadline last season as well.

Which forced The Marmot to give more appearances to Svanson, who was clearly the team's most effective reliever.
That never would have happened had it not been forced on The Marmot.

Oli is fine as long as he is paint by numbers managing. Give him 3 or 4 good relievers and he will go with the formula 7,8,9 to win games. Other than that when he has to actually manage or if the paint by numbers fails he short circuits. He’s also not a good motivator the players like him because he’s their buddy but he doesn’t motivate them it was confirmed when arenado said in the win streak it was a couple of years since they came to the ball park expecting good things to happen instead of hoping good things happen that said it all there. It means when pujols and Molina left it was all on oli to lead the team and he isn’t a leader he’s a friend

So he had a top 10 MLB bullpen by being paint by numbers? He certainly didn't have a top 10 talented MLB bullpen.

How did he not? The numbers say otherwise. He would go to the same solid relievers when he had the lead paint by numbers. If the game didn’t go that way he lost his mind. Look no more than the confused bewildered look on his face when he watched and watched and watched and watched as helsley melted down in the post season classic deer in the headlights look on his face had no clue what to do because that wasn’t scripted. He’s solid as long as he’s paint by numbers get him out of that and he’s done. If you like him cool but cardinals will never win with him managing never

There's the go to Cards Talk come back. "Well if you love Oli....." Again, I never even said I like him or hate him. With this roster, what manager is going to win? He led a patched together bullpen to a top 10 ERA in 2025. That's not paint by numbers.

For years nobody on this site supported Mozeliak and his decision-making more than you did.
Now Mozeliak’s roster sucked but Oli did as much as possible with what he was given?

Ok.

So now we're totally making up things? I'm not a Mo supporter/hater nor an Oli supporter/hater. Mo tailed off in Goldy like fashion down the home stretch of his stay here as GM and has left this team in a big hole.

I’m not making anything up, but glad you’ve seen the light even if it was late.

[rockondlouie]

Oh please don't let this happen.

amen and amen

Reading the others pro-Oli comments, I don't know who they've been watching 82birds.

Other than running the pen' well, what on earth has he done that makes the team better?

And I get sick of the "roster" c r a p, we've seen quality managers get way more out of their teams than Oli has w/equal or even less talented rosters.

Oli = Mediocracy

Rock, any time a General Manager of any organization who is trying to be successful, says that he doesn't want his Manager to feel the pressure of winning, is enough to tell me about ol Oliver. He stays, for now, because he is cheap and he takes orders. He is certainly not a future manager of a world series team. Obviously our goal is not to win the world series this year, as he is still here as manager. Once he is gone and replaced, we may be serious about competing for a trophy again. Place holder in the meantime.

And he stays this season because BDWJr wasn't about to pay him to sit on his rear end, hopefully that "chatter" is nothing more than a stupid rumor fed to Goold.

[Goldfan]

I’ve been attempting to keep up with answers, but has anyone given a reason how or why little Oli brings an advantage to the Cards and makes this team better???
These reply’s that manager don’t really matter are about as stupid as reading Jordan Walker figured out his muscles weren’t activating properly

[cardinalsfever44]

I’ve been attempting to keep up with answers, but has anyone given a reason how or why little Oli brings an advantage to the Cards and makes this team better???
These reply’s that manager don’t really matter are about as stupid as reading Jordan Walker figured out his muscles weren’t activating properly

It's because your question is totally subjective and stupid, so I'll ask you a stupid one in response. For the 2025 season, what advantages did Terry Francona bring to the Reds allowing them to be better than any other manager would have, citing specific examples of how he, and not the players, won games (obviously he never lost them, only Oli can do that ) Also, keep in mind that the mastermind Francona went 6-7 against who you proclaim as the worst manager in MLB in 2025.

[cardinalsfever44]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

[Goldfan]

I’ve been attempting to keep up with answers, but has anyone given a reason how or why little Oli brings an advantage to the Cards and makes this team better???
These reply’s that manager don’t really matter are about as stupid as reading Jordan Walker figured out his muscles weren’t activating properly

It's because your question is totally subjective and stupid, so I'll ask you a stupid one in response. For the 2025 season, what advantages did Terry Francona bring to the Reds allowing them to be better than any other manager would have, citing specific examples of how he, and not the players, won games (obviously he never lost them, only Oli can do that ) Also, keep in mind that the mastermind Francona went 6-7 against who you proclaim as the worst manager in MLB in 2025.

You’re here stumping for Oli and can’t give ONE reason why he gives the Cardinals an advantage or helps the team win games??
I don’t follow the Reds or Francona. I know they finished above Cards with 83-79 record

[Goldfan]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

LOL, what does Francona have to do with my question about Oli?

[Dicktar2023]

Can someone give me an argument that Marmol is a good MLB manager?

Not "ya know, he isn't as bad as everybody makes him out to be."

Not "if you think about it, nobody could have succeeded with that roster."

Not "well, actually, TLR/Lasorda/Connie Mack/etc. etc. weren't very good in their first 20 years managing."

Not "I want to see what he can do in the playoffs."

We have 3 full seasons of data. Using just that data, make the argument that Oli Marmol is a good manager.

[cardinalsfever44]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

LOL, what does Francona have to do with my question about Oli?

You asked the question earlier in the thread to list out what makes Oli a good manager. I asked you to list this out for any other manager and you ignored the question. So now I'm pointing out what Reds fans think of their manager and its the exact same complaints you see on this board.

[Goldfan]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

LOL, what does Francona have to do with my question about Oli?

You asked the question earlier in the thread to list out what makes Oli a good manager. I asked you to list this out for any other manager and you ignored the question. So now I'm pointing out what Reds fans think of their manager and its the exact same complaints you see on this board.

TLR/Dunc rearranged their starting rotation well ahead of time so their best pitchers were lined up for important series.
TLR would rest his studs when they needed it, not plot out days off before the season started regardless of opponent or standings.

[Dicktar2023]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

LOL, what does Francona have to do with my question about Oli?

You asked the question earlier in the thread to list out what makes Oli a good manager. I asked you to list this out for any other manager and you ignored the question. So now I'm pointing out what Reds fans think of their manager and its the exact same complaints you see on this board.

Shifting of the Burden of Proof
onus probandi

Description: Making a claim that needs justification, then demanding that the opponent justifies the opposite of the claim. The burden of proof is a legal and philosophical concept with differences in each domain. In everyday debate, the burden of proof typically lies with the person making the claim, but it can also lie with the person denying a well-established fact or theory. Like other non-black and white issues, there are instances where this is clearly fallacious, and those which are not as clear.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... n-of-Proof

[cardinalsfever44]

Can someone give me an argument that Marmol is a good MLB manager?

Not "ya know, he isn't as bad as everybody makes him out to be."

Not "if you think about it, nobody could have succeeded with that roster."

Not "well, actually, TLR/Lasorda/Connie Mack/etc. etc. weren't very good in their first 20 years managing."

Not "I want to see what he can do in the playoffs."

We have 3 full seasons of data. Using just that data, make the argument that Oli Marmol is a good manager.

So basically, players on the team don't matter, it's all about the manager? Got it.

Can you make the argument that he's so bad he needs to be fired immediately? A rotation of Gray, Pallante, Mikolas, Liberatore, and Fedde, with an offense where 1 guy (who had only 388 ABs) OPS'd over .800. This was a team that was sitting exactly .500 at the trade deadline. How can you seriously say that is "BAD"?

He led the Cards bullpen to the 10th best ERA in MLB, while selling off two of two of the top arms at the trade deadline. That's one plus off the top of my head. Again, I could not care less if he were fired right now or was kept for another couple years. This team isn't going to compete with its current roster no matter who is the manager.

[vegascardsfan5890]

A manager is only as good as the players around him. You could be the greatest manager of all time but if you have no talent the team is going to stink.

I wonder if there is a statistic that measures how many wins a manager truly brings to his team

[cardinalsfever44]

Here were Reds fans critiques of Francona in 2025. Sounds pretty familiar

Questionable Bullpen Decisions: A frequent point of contention throughout the season was Francona's handling of the pitching staff, particularly in late-inning situations.
One notable instance involved leaving a struggling pitcher (Ian Gibaut) on the mound in the seventh inning with a four-run lead, which subsequently evaporated after the Cubs hit a grand slam.
The use of specific relievers in high-leverage situations was a common complaint, with some fans feeling he pushed the "wrong button" on who to bring in from the bullpen.

In-Game Strategy (Baserunning & Small Ball): The team was often plagued by baserunning mistakes and defensive lapses, which some critics attributed to a lack of managerial discipline or a departure from "small ball" tactics.
Francona was criticized for not utilizing bunts or encouraging more stolen bases in certain situations where a single run could have been crucial.
He even second-guessed his own late-inning decision in an August loss to the Diamondbacks.

Lineup Stability and Hitting Philosophy: The Reds' offense struggled with consistency, ranking 14th in MLB in runs per game. Some arguments pointed to Francona's adherence to certain lineups or his general offensive philosophy as contributing factors to the team's hitting woes.

LOL, what does Francona have to do with my question about Oli?

You asked the question earlier in the thread to list out what makes Oli a good manager. I asked you to list this out for any other manager and you ignored the question. So now I'm pointing out what Reds fans think of their manager and its the exact same complaints you see on this board.

TLR/Dunc rearranged their starting rotation well ahead of time so their best pitchers were lined up for important series.
TLR would rest his studs when they needed it, not plot out days off before the season started regardless of opponent or standings.

Studs are not something Oli has the use of at any position on the field with this current roster.

[Dicktar2023]

Can someone give me an argument that Marmol is a good MLB manager?

Not "ya know, he isn't as bad as everybody makes him out to be."

Not "if you think about it, nobody could have succeeded with that roster."

Not "well, actually, TLR/Lasorda/Connie Mack/etc. etc. weren't very good in their first 20 years managing."

Not "I want to see what he can do in the playoffs."

We have 3 full seasons of data. Using just that data, make the argument that Oli Marmol is a good manager.

So basically, players on the team don't matter, it's all about the manager? Got it.

Can you make the argument that he's so bad he needs to be fired immediately? A rotation of Gray, Pallante, Mikolas, Liberatore, and Fedde, with an offense where 1 guy (who had only 388 ABs) OPS'd over .800. This was a team that was sitting exactly .500 at the trade deadline. How can you seriously say that is "BAD"?

He led the Cards bullpen to the 10th best ERA in MLB, while selling off two of two of the top arms at the trade deadline. That's one plus off the top of my head. Again, I could not care less if he were fired right now or was kept for another couple years. This team isn't going to compete with its current roster no matter who is the manager.

So, cardinalsfever44 can't think of any reason to believe Marmol is a good MLB manager. Anyone else?

[cardinalsfever44]

Can someone give me an argument that Marmol is a good MLB manager?

Not "ya know, he isn't as bad as everybody makes him out to be."

Not "if you think about it, nobody could have succeeded with that roster."

Not "well, actually, TLR/Lasorda/Connie Mack/etc. etc. weren't very good in their first 20 years managing."

Not "I want to see what he can do in the playoffs."

We have 3 full seasons of data. Using just that data, make the argument that Oli Marmol is a good manager.

So basically, players on the team don't matter, it's all about the manager? Got it.

Can you make the argument that he's so bad he needs to be fired immediately? A rotation of Gray, Pallante, Mikolas, Liberatore, and Fedde, with an offense where 1 guy (who had only 388 ABs) OPS'd over .800. This was a team that was sitting exactly .500 at the trade deadline. How can you seriously say that is "BAD"?

He led the Cards bullpen to the 10th best ERA in MLB, while selling off two of two of the top arms at the trade deadline. That's one plus off the top of my head. Again, I could not care less if he were fired right now or was kept for another couple years. This team isn't going to compete with its current roster no matter who is the manager.

So, cardinalsfever44 can't think of any reason to believe Marmol is a good MLB manager. Anyone else?

I gave you a reason. You clearly never learned to read.