EVERY YEAR...EVERY YEAR...The Cards should try to win

[Carp4Cy]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

They traded an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat and hasn’t helped the cardinals win anything who is getting. Paid like an ace and doesn’t pitch like an ace what expertly were you expecting to get for him? Lol

He pitched deep enough and well enought to win 14 games, which is better than anyone else on either the Cardinals or a lot of other teams. No he's not an ACE but that is a contribution that we aren't going to get now. To me that's worth an incremental $20M of Bill's money that ISN"T going to get reinvested in someone better than Gray. I hope Bloom proves me wrong but I'm waiting.

The $20M to get thru the season with a few less innings of boo-birds, and Gray's experience to lend to whatever AAA pitchers we do promote is still worth something. If he's good in Fenway or on the road, Boston got a huge bargain.

You are still ignoring the question. What does Gray winning 14 do for the team when they are finishing forth and missing the playoffs? This team was not close to a World Series team. Staying mediocre fixes nothing.

FWIW - had the Cardinals stayed mediocre the past several seasons, winning just a few more meaningless games each year, they probably don't land in a position to draft Wetherholt (who FG has as the highest ranked prospect from the 2024 draft) and Doyle (who FG has as the highest ranked prospect from the 2025 draft).

Some of y’all are gonna really struggle here when the Cardinals finally rebuild enough to win this division and yet find we still can’t top the Dodgers, but we also can’t draft High

[mattmitchl44]

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Yeah, the reason you really like a prospect like Clarke is that, because of how hard he throws and his strikeout stuff, if he develops a third pitch and some control, you have a #1/#2 SP, which is a huge addition.

And, even if he doesn't develop a third pitch and a lot of control, he's still a viable option as a closer or set up man, which is still valuable.

This a lot better than the Cardinals usual pitch-to-contact prospects who typically have a ceiling of a back-of-rotation SP and a basement of not being viable at the ML level at all.

[mattmitchl44]

Some of y’all are gonna really struggle here when the Cardinals finally rebuild enough to win this division and yet find we still can’t top the Dodgers, but we also can’t draft High

At least the path they are on gives them a chance. Other paths don't even do that.

[Stlcardsblues]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

[Carp4Cy]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

Maybe a Spencer Jones. Maybe someone already in the majors like Hernandez or similar . Maybe both.

[renostl]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

If you asked him he would probably agree, although he may also allow himself
to be pleased with today's events.

[Ozziesfan41]

Some of y’all are gonna really struggle here when the Cardinals finally rebuild enough to win this division and yet find we still can’t top the Dodgers, but we also can’t draft High

At least the path they are on gives them a chance. Other paths don't even do that.

lol no kidding. He’s trying to tell every one they may at some point be upset in the future and struggle when he’s struggling and complaining now and will continue to struggle in the future.

[Stlcardsblues]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

Maybe a Spencer Jones. Maybe someone already in the majors like Hernandez or similar . Maybe both.

Hearing a ton of Spencer Jones is the equivalent of Gorman 2.0. Can go on Homer hot streaks but tons of strikeouts and is likely to be exposed in the Majors.

Which Hernandez are you asking about? It’s a common name. Teoscar Hernandez is not moving the needle to get this team to a contender.

[Stlcardsblues]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

Maybe a Spencer Jones. Maybe someone already in the majors like Hernandez or similar . Maybe both.

Out of curiosity, what are you looking to move to NY for Jones? Off memory the Gray NY experience didn’t end well. Doubt NY was interested in trying that again.

[Carp4Cy]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

Maybe a Spencer Jones. Maybe someone already in the majors like Hernandez or similar . Maybe both.

Hearing a ton of Spencer Jones is the equivalent of Gorman 2.0. Can go on Homer hot streaks but tons of strikeouts and is likely to be exposed in the Majors.

Which Hernandez are you asking about? It’s a common name. Teoscar Hernandez is not moving the needle to get this team to a contender.

That’s just it. Nobody moves the needle all by themselves but at least Teoscar is a MLB ball player and smashes in October. We need not 1 but a whole core of quality players to really move the needle and he wouldn’t be a bad one to include. Trouble is if we wait until the needle moves on its own before we do anything risky and add at the MLB level, we might never hit “critical mass” and start. You can have an entire roster of supposedly “talented” young cheap guys like Colorado, or even Skenes and others at Pitt, but without a better manager and some proven vets to help lead, they may never just start organically winning 85- 90 games all on their own. And then by some peoples estimation we are never close enough to start investing in veteran talent because 1-2 more FA still won’t get us to 100 wins.

[mattmitchl44]

That’s just it. Nobody moves the needle all by themselves but at least Teoscar is a MLB ball player and smashes in October. We need not 1 but a whole core of quality players to really move the needle and he wouldn’t be a bad one to include. Trouble is if we wait until the needle moves on its own before we do anything risky and add at the MLB level, we might never hit “critical mass” and start. You can have an entire roster of supposedly “talented” young cheap guys like Colorado, or even Skenes and others at Pitt, but without a better manager and some proven vets to help lead, they may never just start organically winning 85- 90 games all on their own. And then by some peoples estimation we are never close enough to start investing in veteran talent because 1-2 more FA still won’t get us to 100 wins.

Have you stopped to consider that possibility that they WILL succeed in pulling together a 25-30 fWAR "critical mass" of young, cost controlled players in the next 2-3 years? That they WILL then be able to go out and make really precise and good decisions about adding proven veteran who are still much closer to the primes to fill in any holes? And that by doing so they WILL get to being a 93, 95, etc. win team that closes a lot of gap between where they are today and the Dodgers, Phillies, etc.?

You talk about Teoscar Hernandez. Even if you could go get him, he'll be age 33 in 2026, and is already potentially showing signs of being past his prime (two sub-2 fWAR seasons in the last three). By the time the Cardinals have fully reloaded with young talent in ~2028, he'll be age 35, and even further past his prime. Is that going to be guy you want to be spending $20-$22 million a year on at that point?

[Ozziesfan41]

That’s just it. Nobody moves the needle all by themselves but at least Teoscar is a MLB ball player and smashes in October. We need not 1 but a whole core of quality players to really move the needle and he wouldn’t be a bad one to include. Trouble is if we wait until the needle moves on its own before we do anything risky and add at the MLB level, we might never hit “critical mass” and start. You can have an entire roster of supposedly “talented” young cheap guys like Colorado, or even Skenes and others at Pitt, but without a better manager and some proven vets to help lead, they may never just start organically winning 85- 90 games all on their own. And then by some peoples estimation we are never close enough to start investing in veteran talent because 1-2 more FA still won’t get us to 100 wins.

Have you stopped to consider that possibility that they WILL succeed in pulling together a 25-30 fWAR "critical mass" of young, cost controlled players in the next 2-3 years? That they WILL then be able to go out and make really precise and good decisions about adding proven veteran who are still much closer to the primes to fill in any holes? And that by doing so they WILL get to being a 93, 95, etc. win team that closes a lot of gap between where they are today and the Dodgers, Phillies, etc.?

You talk about Teoscar Hernandez. Even if you could go get him, he'll be age 33 in 2026, and is already potentially showing signs of being past his prime (two sub-2 fWAR seasons in the last three). By the time the Cardinals have fully reloaded with young talent in ~2028, he'll be age 35, and even further past his prime. Is that going to be guy you want to be spending $20-$22 million a year on at that point?

And that’s if he wants to sign with a team with the cardinals who will only finish 4th maybe 3rd if he signs with them

[Bully4you]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

And what was Sonny Gray winning us this year? He was on the 25 team, how did that team fare?

Well, this is nothing more than raising the white flag moment.
Nothing more.

[Carp4Cy]

That’s just it. Nobody moves the needle all by themselves but at least Teoscar is a MLB ball player and smashes in October. We need not 1 but a whole core of quality players to really move the needle and he wouldn’t be a bad one to include. Trouble is if we wait until the needle moves on its own before we do anything risky and add at the MLB level, we might never hit “critical mass” and start. You can have an entire roster of supposedly “talented” young cheap guys like Colorado, or even Skenes and others at Pitt, but without a better manager and some proven vets to help lead, they may never just start organically winning 85- 90 games all on their own. And then by some peoples estimation we are never close enough to start investing in veteran talent because 1-2 more FA still won’t get us to 100 wins.

Have you stopped to consider that possibility that they WILL succeed in pulling together a 25-30 fWAR "critical mass" of young, cost controlled players in the next 2-3 years? That they WILL then be able to go out and make really precise and good decisions about adding proven veteran who are still much closer to the primes to fill in any holes? And that by doing so they WILL get to being a 93, 95, etc. win team that closes a lot of gap between where they are today and the Dodgers, Phillies, etc.?

You talk about Teoscar Hernandez. Even if you could go get him, he'll be age 33 in 2026, and is already potentially showing signs of being past his prime (two sub-2 fWAR seasons in the last three). By the time the Cardinals have fully reloaded with young talent in ~2028, he'll be age 35, and even further past his prime. Is that going to be guy you want to be spending $20-$22 million a year on at that point?

He’s just a thought. Andy Pages might be a better option. Experience in Oct and still very young.

The club doesn’t have good OF options at any level. We are going to have to make trades and it’s rare you can suddenly just trade for 3 starting OF at the same time when ready (2021 Braves notwithstanding).

We also were going to need some pre-existing October experience when we finally get into October or the young and inexperienced guys will probably fall flat to the teams with more experience regardless of how much fwar talent they have in the regular season. 30 somethings routinely win playoff games.

[mattmitchl44]

He’s just a thought. Andy Pages might be a better option. Experience in Oct and still very young.

Pages would definitely be a lot better. But his value in BTV is +32.5 vs. Hernandez being a -11.3. So obtaining Pages vs. Hernandez is a completely different proposition.

We also were going to need some pre-existing October experience when we finally get into October or the young and inexperienced guys will probably fall flat to the teams with more experience regardless of how much fwar talent they have in the regular season. 30 somethings routinely win playoff games.

Eventually they are going to need to sign some more expensive and talented veterans. Right now the young players can learn from a few 1 yr./$10 million veterans in 2026.

[Carp4Cy]

This Sonny Gray trade should be looked at to answer 1 question--Did it make the team better?
As of right now we have $20M and 2 prospects for our best pitcher.
So, this just confirmed we are officially rebuilding.
Everyone here is so ecstatic over a couple of prospects.
One throws hard.
The other injured a lot.
Bottom line, we are most likely last in the division after this move.
Really nothing to celebrate here.
He may reinvest the $20M into another free agent.
That will help.
But as of this moment, Cards are a last place team.
Of course we have much of the off season to go.
So, let's see what happens.

So what? If they kept him they would finish next to last again at least now they have prospects who may help them win in the future instead of an old pitcher who can’t pitch in the heat of St. Louis and wasn’t going to help them win now or in the future

Well, if you thought they had a lousy rotation before the trade.
Well, just look at it after the trade.
I don't give a rats a z z about dEwitt's money.

Do you care about years of control?

control of what exactly. Boston gave up on these 2 for a reason. One looks like a Pallante that can't stay healthy, and the other has no control and hasn't graduated A ball at age 22. Projects like that are a dime a dozen. Its fine to trade a Fermin type or a backup catcher once in a while to take a flyer on one, but you can't expect them to move the needle of your future at all. Odds are better than even that Clarke never produces significant MLB WAR.

Montreal gave up a lefty with massive control issues in the minors. As he got more experience he learned to harness it to his advantage into a Hall of Fame career. We have no idea how these players will pan out. The only know was Gray wasn’t going to help STL win in 2026 so getting future help with high upside was a massive win.

Again, massive is relative. Accumulate enough of these wins and might approach .500 next decade. I’m still waiting for the moves that I actually do excite me like outfielders which we have none of.

There’s time for Bloom to do his job, but he hasn’t done enough yet to make me excited

So what OF are you hoping they get?

Maybe a Spencer Jones. Maybe someone already in the majors like Hernandez or similar . Maybe both.

Hearing a ton of Spencer Jones is the equivalent of Gorman 2.0. Can go on Homer hot streaks but tons of strikeouts and is likely to be exposed in the Majors.

I've also read comps to Judge. If he has a floor of Gorman and a ceiling of 75% of Judge, I'd pay something to acquire that - not a JJW, but a MLB player + a surplus lower prospect maybe. And it could be fun to watch.