Big developmental seasons coming up for these four

[Jatalk]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

I’ve seen enough development seasons for Gorman and Walker

[C-Unit]

Walker and Gorman have pretty much become reclamation project "lottery tickets" at this point.

And Scott (fringy, glove-only CF) and Saggese (utility player) probably are what they are.

Maybe the Cardinals should call up a team that otherwise has a ton of offense, like the Yankees, to see if they could offload Scott to them

"Saggese (utility player)". Did you feel that way about Burleson at one time?

I never felt any particular way about Burleson.

Why not? Please elaborate.

Because he just is what he is - a more or less competent bat who should probably be stationed at 1B, if anywhere. Good enough platoon player start vs. RHPs.

With Burleson at 1B, would you play Herrera at LF, DH or C

[mattmitchl44]

Walker and Gorman have pretty much become reclamation project "lottery tickets" at this point.

And Scott (fringy, glove-only CF) and Saggese (utility player) probably are what they are.

Maybe the Cardinals should call up a team that otherwise has a ton of offense, like the Yankees, to see if they could offload Scott to them

"Saggese (utility player)". Did you feel that way about Burleson at one time?

I never felt any particular way about Burleson.

Why not? Please elaborate.

Because he just is what he is - a more or less competent bat who should probably be stationed at 1B, if anywhere. Good enough platoon player start vs. RHPs.

With Burleson at 1B, would you play Herrera at LF, DH or C

I don't know. If you trade Contreras, maybe you start Herrera at 1B vs. LHPs and DH him when Burleson starts at 1B vs. RHPs.

[CorneliusWolfe]

It should be prove it or move on for Walker and Gorman. These two need to show some sort of ability to improve now. Enough with runways for these two jokers. If they keep flailing at (bleep) pitches and watching things down the middle, they can sell peanuts.

Those that don't see much potential in Saggese need for the Cardinals to give him the runway Walker and Gorman have had. Then decide. One issue I noticed with Saggese. He's a little swing-happy, at times. Kind of like Burleson was when he came up. I look for Saggese to make progress on that like Burleson did. I like Saggese's aggressiveness at the plate. Again, similar to Burly's.

two very different approaches and results. Not comparable at all. That's tough to see from a Box Score.

Burleson swung at everything in the strike zone and out of the strike zone...he made contact, all-be-it weak contact, with most of the pitches outside of the zone...but pitchers would exploit that weakness. He cut down on that a bit this year. Kudos to him.

Saggese swings at everything and misses....out of the zone and in the zone. Two different outcomes...again, that's tough to see from a box score.

No comparison at all...except that they both were terrible in their freshman season....Saggese much more so than Burleson.

Any chance Saggese develops into a Silver Slugger like Burleson has. By the way, I see a lot of things besides what's in the "Box Score".

you see dead people?

You posted, "Saggese swings at everything and misses....out of the zone and in the zone". Please explain how Saggese had a .258 BA.
By the way, I haven't seen you post congratulations to Burleson for getting a national honor for himself and the St. Louis Cardinals. Why is that?

I've explained Chase Rates and K Rates to you before....many, many times. And I hope you still remember what a Strike Out is...yes?

Saggese "misses the ball" much more than Burleson does....28% K rate vs. 14% K rate for Burley's. You see....2 times the K Rate means that Saggese "misses the ball" much more than Burleson does....Burley puts the ball in play, getting seeing eye singles at a greater rate than Saggese.

The two aren't comparable at the plate....different philosophy at the plate. So your claim that "Burleson did it, so can Saggese"...that's speculative and not backed up by Data of any sort. They both did play for the Cardinals last year, so you can make that comparsion

And when Burley won his recently made up Silver Slugger award for "Utility Player", I indeed offered a "GG"....that means "Good Game". But that has no bearing on the OP.

Burley had a better season than 2024...WAR wise. Kudos to him. He had nearly the same PA's as the other SS award winners at 1B, DH, LF, RF....but no where near the same stats. Winning at Utility with the same number of PA's is bit like "1st Loser"...maybe not even 1st Loser....I don't think he'd finish runner up to 1B, LF, and RF. Thankfully for Burley, they created a Utility SS 3 or 4 seasons ago.

You seem to have indicated that Burleson has peaked, offensively, at 26. Is that correct?

Considering his numbers the past two seasons, where he improved on his batting avg some but production numbers declined, and he’s a fat body, I’d say there is a good chance he’s peaked. And now arb eligible, there’s not as much value factor. Time to sell high. And it ain’t gonna be as high as many think.

A severe lack of star power on the team and the longing for it causes too many to think he has more value than he really does. He might be one of the less-rotten apples of the bunch (at the plate only) but other GMs know what he really is and won’t overvalue him. If he could net a good reliever with team control it would be worth it. He could net a back end starter but we have enough of those.

CorneliusWolfe spot on! Say you got a barrel of bad apples. Burly may be better than some of the rotten ones, but you still have a barrel of bad apples. JJ and Doyle will hopefully change the lack of star narrative in the future, but for right now Burly is just one of the better of the bad ones. IMHO

Keep in mind, neither JJ or Doyle have accomplished anything at the MLB level as yet. Burleson has, quite admirably. Though many critics can't seem to grasp and acknowledge that fact.

Can’t say I’ve really “admired” much about Burleson’s production. I guess for what he is he’s done ok. If JJ and Doyle don’t FAR exceed Burleson’s accomplishments, then they will be massive misses and terrible picks.

And I know you’re proud of Burleson’s participation trophy-esque utility silver slugger, but have you compared his numbers to the traditional every day silver sluggers? It’s not pretty. It should not even be an award. We’ll see how well his agent sells it as a major accomplishment to other GMs come free agency. Neither Burleson, Walker, or Gorman will receive an MLB pension. They’ll all be out of baseball in a few years.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Walker and Gorman have pretty much become reclamation project "lottery tickets" at this point.

And Scott (fringy, glove-only CF) and Saggese (utility player) probably are what they are.

Maybe the Cardinals should call up a team that otherwise has a ton of offense, like the Yankees, to see if they could offload Scott to them

"Saggese (utility player)". Did you feel that way about Burleson at one time?

I never felt any particular way about Burleson.

Why not? Please elaborate.

Because he just is what he is - a more or less competent bat who should probably be stationed at 1B, if anywhere. Good enough platoon player start vs. RHPs.

With Burleson at 1B, would you play Herrera at LF, DH or C

I don't know. If you trade Contreras, maybe you start Herrera at 1B vs. LHPs and DH him when Burleson starts at 1B vs. RHPs.

That’s probably the best plan under those unfortunate circumstances.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Keep in mind, neither JJ or Doyle have accomplished anything at the MLB level as yet. Burleson has, quite admirably. Though many critics can't seem to grasp and acknowledge that fact.

Besides recommending counseling for the help you need, I may also get you a pair of glasses. Did you see where I said "hopefully JJ and Doyle may change that in the future" ? As far as Burly goes, I think he would be a good 7 or 8th place hitter on a good team. But what you have said in the past about him, with your crazy comparisons of former great players, is where you start being ridiculous.

I saw it. And you are also spot on about him being a good 7/8 hitter on a GOOD team. That’s what he is but Burly fever clouds the mind.

[Carp4Cy]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

Why would a 5th season of Gorman been any different? He's a 0 WAR player at 3b. Arenado at this stage in his career is still much better. And there are a half dozen other options outside our org who are better options than Nado.

[Shady]

Keep in mind, neither JJ or Doyle have accomplished anything at the MLB level as yet. Burleson has, quite admirably. Though many critics can't seem to grasp and acknowledge that fact.

Besides recommending counseling for the help you need, I may also get you a pair of glasses. Did you see where I said "hopefully JJ and Doyle may change that in the future" ? As far as Burly goes, I think he would be a good 7 or 8th place hitter on a good team. But what you have said in the past about him, with your crazy comparisons of former great players, is where you start being ridiculous.

I saw it. And you are also spot on about him being a good 7/8 hitter on a GOOD team. That’s what he is but Burly fever clouds the mind.

From an earlier statement you made. "Neither Burleson, Walker, or Gorman will receive an MLB pension". Burleson's MLB pension will likely be much more than whatever pension you might get.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Keep in mind, neither JJ or Doyle have accomplished anything at the MLB level as yet. Burleson has, quite admirably. Though many critics can't seem to grasp and acknowledge that fact.

Besides recommending counseling for the help you need, I may also get you a pair of glasses. Did you see where I said "hopefully JJ and Doyle may change that in the future" ? As far as Burly goes, I think he would be a good 7 or 8th place hitter on a good team. But what you have said in the past about him, with your crazy comparisons of former great players, is where you start being ridiculous.

I saw it. And you are also spot on about him being a good 7/8 hitter on a GOOD team. That’s what he is but Burly fever clouds the mind.

From an earlier statement you made. "Neither Burleson, Walker, or Gorman will receive an MLB pension". Burleson's MLB pension will likely be much more than whatever pension you might get.

Yes, pro athletes make more than us on this board, annually, during their youth anyway. Doesn’t mean we don’t secure our futures quite well while many of them (bleep) theirs away. So what’s your point?

Taylor Swift makes more than you…so does that mean you have to like her music?

What I really meant about the pension comment is that they need to stick for 10 years. I don’t see either of them lasting that long.

If anything, Gorman or Walker has a better chance because if something finally clicks for them, their physical abilities will shine. Burleson….everyone has a platoon DH guy somewhere on the roster or down on the farm.

[Shady]

Keep in mind, neither JJ or Doyle have accomplished anything at the MLB level as yet. Burleson has, quite admirably. Though many critics can't seem to grasp and acknowledge that fact.

Besides recommending counseling for the help you need, I may also get you a pair of glasses. Did you see where I said "hopefully JJ and Doyle may change that in the future" ? As far as Burly goes, I think he would be a good 7 or 8th place hitter on a good team. But what you have said in the past about him, with your crazy comparisons of former great players, is where you start being ridiculous.

I saw it. And you are also spot on about him being a good 7/8 hitter on a GOOD team. That’s what he is but Burly fever clouds the mind.

From an earlier statement you made. "Neither Burleson, Walker, or Gorman will receive an MLB pension". Burleson's MLB pension will likely be much more than whatever pension you might get.

Yes, pro athletes make more than us on this board, annually, during their youth anyway. Doesn’t mean we don’t secure our futures quite well while many of them (bleep) theirs away. So what’s your point?

Taylor Swift makes more than you…so does that mean you have to like her music?

What I really meant about the pension comment is that they need to stick for 10 years. I don’t see either of them lasting that long.

If anything, Gorman or Walker has a better chance because if something finally clicks for them, their physical abilities will shine. Burleson….everyone has a platoon DH guy somewhere on the roster or down on the farm.

You, like many CT posters, have Burleson Derangement Syndrome. Open your eyes as to how far he's come as an MLB hitter when so many fall by the wayside.

[ecleme22]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

[Shady]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

Why not?

[CorneliusWolfe]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

Why not?

C’mon Shady, you know why, if you’re the former coach and astute baseball mind you claim to be.

Because NG and JW had tremendous upside and VS good upside as an elite CFer and major base stealing threat. Saggesse’s upside is a solid middle infielder which can be cheaply replaced.

[zuck698]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

Why not?

C’mon Shady, you know why, if you’re the former coach and astute baseball mind you claim to be.

Because NG and JW had tremendous upside and VS good upside as an elite CFer and major base stealing threat. Saggesse’s upside is a solid middle infielder which can be cheaply replaced.

Exactly! He is the defintion of a JAG!

[Shady]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

Why not?

C’mon Shady, you know why, if you’re the former coach and astute baseball mind you claim to be.

Because NG and JW had tremendous upside and VS good upside as an elite CFer and major base stealing threat. Saggesse’s upside is a solid middle infielder which can be cheaply replaced.

The season Saggese had at 21 in AA was almost surreal. He turns 24 in April. I choose to see "the glass half full" with Saggese.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Walker, Gorman, Scott II and Saggese. If at least two of the four upgrade their offensive production. It would be huge for the Cardinals. Which two have the better chances to do that? I'll opine that one will be Saggese.

It might be Saggesse. But that might not be a good thing.

Why not?

C’mon Shady, you know why, if you’re the former coach and astute baseball mind you claim to be.

Because NG and JW had tremendous upside and VS good upside as an elite CFer and major base stealing threat. Saggesse’s upside is a solid middle infielder which can be cheaply replaced.

The season Saggese had at 21 in AA was almost surreal. At 23, I choose to see "the glass half full" with Saggese.

If he was going to go back down to play at AA again I’d share your optimism.

I don’t dislike Saggesse, or Burleson for that matter, but I don’t get the extreme optimism for them either. They both seem like roster filler and neither display any significant traits that say they will become transformative players. What do you see in them that screams future stars?

And don’t ignore the question and tell me how much Gorman and Walker sucks either, which seems to be the Burly lovers go-to retort. They are also likely irrelevant and appear to be busts at this point.