Goold: Donovan's market starting to materialize

[mattmitchl44]

But there's absolutely nothing wrong w/acquiring either via trade or thru FA a quality YOUNG starting pitcher or hitter this offseason.

And HOW do you plan to do that?

Bichette (to be 28) and Cease (to be 30) are the youngest position player/starting pitcher of the top FAs. They're not old, but they are well into their expected primes or exiting their expected primes. And everybody else is older.

When you sign them to 5+ year contracts (which they will almost certainly get from somebody), are you sure you know where they are going to be in Years 3, 4, and 5?

Or how are you going to trade for anyone younger without giving up equivalent talent in return? You aren't going to get it for Arenado no matter how much salary you eat. You're also very unlikely to even get if for Gray. Who is going to give up a young 3+ fWAR SP for an old 3+ fWAR pitcher in Gray?

You're aware C. Bloom once landed:

Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

See matt your stuck in the MO ERA still where a totally INEPT POBO blew trade after trade and wasted payroll like a drunken sailor on leave.

But there's a new sheriff in town and he's made some pretty sharp trades, getting all star caliber talent for virtually nothing!

Lose the "Mo mentality" matt, the new guy's pretty shrewd.

When he acquired W. Abreu, he acquired him as a AA prospect. So yes, he SHOULD acquire prospects.

Pivetta wasn't a "quality young SP" when Boston acquired him. He'd averaged about 1 fWAR per season over his first 3.5 years.

And he could only acquire Schwarber for Ramierz because Schwarber was going to be a FA at the end of 2021. Not relevant at all.

Ha!

Cherry pick much?

Acquiring N. Pivetta shows Bloom's got an eye for talent!

He intended to keep TGKS but his cheap a z z owner nixed his plans.

100% relevant

It doesn't matter whether the owner did or did not "nix" a plan to keep Schwarber. He only traded for half a season of him, that's why the trade price was what it was.

Again, Pivetta was alright in Boston, a #4 SP. But not more than that. Not a significant difference maker. It would be fine to get a Pivetta, but that isn't going to change the trajectory of the organization.

No, he traded for TGKS w/the plan of signing him to a LT deal.

Again, he acquired Pivetta for NOTHING and he's no worse than anyone not named S. Gray on the 2025 Cardinals roster.....something he could also do here hopefully.

Trading for a Schwarber, who you then have to re-sign at full market rate, isn't any different than just signing Bo Bichette as a FA. It's the same concept. They're 28 yr. old, ~3 fWAR guys who you pay full market value for.

Sure, get a Pivetta if you can. But a 2 fWAR Pivetta isn't going to turn these 2025 Cardinals into an NL contender.

The point is Bloom acquired a great power hitter and that 2 fWAR starter for nothing!

I ONLY cited these two deals to show you Bloom is different from Mo, he can find talent w/o giving up much if anything of value in return.

Complementary pieces, sure. I hope he can do that in St. Louis.

But none of it was earth shattering. Not like the Twins picking up Johan Santana years ago as a Rule 5 draft pick or anything.

Ha

TGKS is now a "complementary" piece in your argument?

Sure wish the Cardinals had a "complementary" piece hitter who just slugged 56 home runs.

BTW

Pivetta has a 2.89 career ERA/0.91 WHiP in the playoffs, the place we're striving to get the Cardinals too.

Schwarber is a fine DH. Been better the last couple of years. Was about $7 million per fWAR for the Phillies over four years, so a solid signing back then.

Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?

Again, Pivetta was a #4 SP in Boston. Got better last year in San Diego. Nice complementary piece.

[renostl]

Exactly!!
It is literally crazy that people think we are going to magically develop a team loaded with star players that are super young, don't cost any money, and all figure it out at the same time. Folks, that isn't ever going to happen!

Teams need star players, young players, veteran players, complimentary players, etc. to win.

Our Cardinals have a team full of young, complimentary pieces. We have a miniscule payroll. Go get a couple stars!! That won't affect our development of the minor leagues. Keep working to improve/develop great players, but get some stars! The MLB isn't a place to develop, it is a place to try and win. The minors are for the developing!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, sure, you could go get a couple of "stars" right now, add them to the insufficient amount of young talent they have currently, and be an overall mediocre roster that wins 8X games in 2026, maybe sneaks into a WC, and loses in the 1st round of the playoffs if that is what you are into.

But, in three or four years, when maybe you do have more young talent with which to try to be really good, those "stars" you went out and got in Dec. 2025 are now - like Arenado, Goldschmidt, Mikolas, Matt Carpenter, etc. became - a shell of their former selves, untradeable, and payroll albatrosses which drag down your ability to compete at a higher level in 2028, 2029, etc.

That's the risk of committing to "stars" now when doing so still won't make you better than mediocre in the short run.

Your certainty of how adding stars would only make us a 80 something win team is perplexing. You don't know that.

And calling Mikolas a star, LOL.

You seem to be able to tell the future matt, give me the Mega Millions numbers.

Even with a couple of more "stars" (not a Judge, Ohtani, etc., "superstar" but like a 3-4 fWAR Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease) makes this a sub-90 win talent roster because there just isn't yet the developed, young talent to support them being better than that.

You seem to be able to tell the future matt, give me the Mega Millions numbers.

You have no idea what adding a Bichette and Cease could do for the 2026 team.

(And I'm not calling for them to do it. I just get tired of you always slamming people who want to stay relevant while you want to s u c k for years and years thinking that will magically turn them into WS contenders............it doesn't work that way and we have multiple MLB teams that prove it. Of course we need to draft/trade and develop our own talent. But we can also add YOUNG talent starting this winter too!)

I can look at the talent that ISN'T on the roster and say with high probability that Bichette and Cease won't make them good enough to be a strong contender to make it the NLCS or WS.

There are never any certainties about the future - but you always have to play the highest probabilities. And the highest probabilities are that they simply can't add enough talent - even if they were to spend up to $170, $180 million - to really compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, Padres, etc., let alone the AL teams.

The certainties are there though.

I am certain that a team needs to have players that produce above their pay level.
That isn't 100% static and change can happen. The current roster does not have a lot of certainty
of players doing that. Then there is hope that some improve. Probability says there is hope
at too many positions for it to all come through. The more certainty players are too few
and are not carriers for a team.

The roster can change rather quickly. Some can emerge and surprise. I wouldn't say that it's
a failed destiny now, nor are you saying that, IMO. It falls more in the possibility of fail list
is a bit high. You buy the productivity and fewer of the uncertainty players emerge and
the Cards repeat recent failures with a $170 million payroll.

NLC championship is compete. The goal is obviously more. That, NLC title may still be missing a
piece but you're in hunt and able to attract players again for those missing pieces.

[rockondlouie]

But there's absolutely nothing wrong w/acquiring either via trade or thru FA a quality YOUNG starting pitcher or hitter this offseason.

And HOW do you plan to do that?

Bichette (to be 28) and Cease (to be 30) are the youngest position player/starting pitcher of the top FAs. They're not old, but they are well into their expected primes or exiting their expected primes. And everybody else is older.

When you sign them to 5+ year contracts (which they will almost certainly get from somebody), are you sure you know where they are going to be in Years 3, 4, and 5?

Or how are you going to trade for anyone younger without giving up equivalent talent in return? You aren't going to get it for Arenado no matter how much salary you eat. You're also very unlikely to even get if for Gray. Who is going to give up a young 3+ fWAR SP for an old 3+ fWAR pitcher in Gray?

You're aware C. Bloom once landed:

Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

See matt your stuck in the MO ERA still where a totally INEPT POBO blew trade after trade and wasted payroll like a drunken sailor on leave.

But there's a new sheriff in town and he's made some pretty sharp trades, getting all star caliber talent for virtually nothing!

Lose the "Mo mentality" matt, the new guy's pretty shrewd.

When he acquired W. Abreu, he acquired him as a AA prospect. So yes, he SHOULD acquire prospects.

Pivetta wasn't a "quality young SP" when Boston acquired him. He'd averaged about 1 fWAR per season over his first 3.5 years.

And he could only acquire Schwarber for Ramierz because Schwarber was going to be a FA at the end of 2021. Not relevant at all.

Ha!

Cherry pick much?

Acquiring N. Pivetta shows Bloom's got an eye for talent!

He intended to keep TGKS but his cheap a z z owner nixed his plans.

100% relevant

It doesn't matter whether the owner did or did not "nix" a plan to keep Schwarber. He only traded for half a season of him, that's why the trade price was what it was.

Again, Pivetta was alright in Boston, a #4 SP. But not more than that. Not a significant difference maker. It would be fine to get a Pivetta, but that isn't going to change the trajectory of the organization.

No, he traded for TGKS w/the plan of signing him to a LT deal.

Again, he acquired Pivetta for NOTHING and he's no worse than anyone not named S. Gray on the 2025 Cardinals roster.....something he could also do here hopefully.

Trading for a Schwarber, who you then have to re-sign at full market rate, isn't any different than just signing Bo Bichette as a FA. It's the same concept. They're 28 yr. old, ~3 fWAR guys who you pay full market value for.

Sure, get a Pivetta if you can. But a 2 fWAR Pivetta isn't going to turn these 2025 Cardinals into an NL contender.

The point is Bloom acquired a great power hitter and that 2 fWAR starter for nothing!

I ONLY cited these two deals to show you Bloom is different from Mo, he can find talent w/o giving up much if anything of value in return.

Complementary pieces, sure. I hope he can do that in St. Louis.

But none of it was earth shattering. Not like the Twins picking up Johan Santana years ago as a Rule 5 draft pick or anything.

Ha

TGKS is now a "complementary" piece in your argument?

Sure wish the Cardinals had a "complementary" piece hitter who just slugged 56 home runs.

BTW

Pivetta has a 2.89 career ERA/0.91 WHiP in the playoffs, the place we're striving to get the Cardinals too.

Schwarber is a fine DH. Been better the last couple of years. Was about $7 million per fWAR for the Phillies over four years, so a solid signing back then.

Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?

Again, Pivetta was a #4 SP in Boston. Got better last year in San Diego. Nice complementary piece.

TGKS also plays LF, not well but he does stand out there ala A. Burleson and the even lesser J. Walker in RF.

"Better the last couple years", huh?

From 2021 - 2025 or the last FIVE seasons:
219 HR's
505 RBI's
.353 .514 .867

And how on earth did this dissolve into, "Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?"

And I'd take Pivetta over everyone on the 2025 staff except Gray.

Pivetta 2025:
3.49 FiP

2025 Cardinals:
Gray/3.39 FiP

LIbby/4.03 FiP
Pallante/4.68 FiP
Mikolas/5.03 FiP
Fedde/5.20 FiP

[Melville]

By Anthony Franco | November 14, 2025 at 9:08pm CDT

The Astros are back in the mix for Brendan Donovan, reports Chandler Rome of The Athletic. That’s not surprising, as Houston’s interest in the St. Louis utility player has dated back to at least the trade deadline.

STL would be wise to take a slow approach.
The Dodgers were also known to have interest in Donovan - and just might be willing to trade Andy Pages if the right package came together.
Might even be able to do something with Mootbaar as one portion of the bait.

Agreed

The pool of potential suitors for Donovan is going to be DEEP, let it develop and the bidding war to begin.

BTW, Pages was my trade target last season too!

If LA chooses to get into the Tucker sweepstakes, Pages just might be available.
In fact, he could also become available if they try for Tucker - and miss.

[renostl]

By Anthony Franco | November 14, 2025 at 9:08pm CDT

The Astros are back in the mix for Brendan Donovan, reports Chandler Rome of The Athletic. That’s not surprising, as Houston’s interest in the St. Louis utility player has dated back to at least the trade deadline.

STL would be wise to take a slow approach.
The Dodgers were also known to have interest in Donovan - and just might be willing to trade Andy Pages if the right package came together.
Might even be able to do something with Mootbaar as one portion of the bait.

Agreed

The pool of potential suitors for Donovan is going to be DEEP, let it develop and the bidding war to begin.

BTW, Pages was my trade target last season too!

If LA chooses to get into the Tucker sweepstakes, Pages just might be available.
In fact, he could also become available if they try for Tucker - and miss.

Impossible to argue against Pages for Donovan, even Donovan and a reasonable plus.
Only sad person would be Pages. Perhaps he's a part of a change.

With Pages and Burleson as 2 OFers players like
Walker, Scott, Church, Baez, even an old friend of yours could battle, unless he's
the "reasonable plus" over the other spots or unseat Burlison's spot.

It's a roster changer, IMO

[mattmitchl44]

And HOW do you plan to do that?

Bichette (to be 28) and Cease (to be 30) are the youngest position player/starting pitcher of the top FAs. They're not old, but they are well into their expected primes or exiting their expected primes. And everybody else is older.

When you sign them to 5+ year contracts (which they will almost certainly get from somebody), are you sure you know where they are going to be in Years 3, 4, and 5?

Or how are you going to trade for anyone younger without giving up equivalent talent in return? You aren't going to get it for Arenado no matter how much salary you eat. You're also very unlikely to even get if for Gray. Who is going to give up a young 3+ fWAR SP for an old 3+ fWAR pitcher in Gray?

You're aware C. Bloom once landed:

Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

See matt your stuck in the MO ERA still where a totally INEPT POBO blew trade after trade and wasted payroll like a drunken sailor on leave.

But there's a new sheriff in town and he's made some pretty sharp trades, getting all star caliber talent for virtually nothing!

Lose the "Mo mentality" matt, the new guy's pretty shrewd.

When he acquired W. Abreu, he acquired him as a AA prospect. So yes, he SHOULD acquire prospects.

Pivetta wasn't a "quality young SP" when Boston acquired him. He'd averaged about 1 fWAR per season over his first 3.5 years.

And he could only acquire Schwarber for Ramierz because Schwarber was going to be a FA at the end of 2021. Not relevant at all.

Ha!

Cherry pick much?

Acquiring N. Pivetta shows Bloom's got an eye for talent!

He intended to keep TGKS but his cheap a z z owner nixed his plans.

100% relevant

It doesn't matter whether the owner did or did not "nix" a plan to keep Schwarber. He only traded for half a season of him, that's why the trade price was what it was.

Again, Pivetta was alright in Boston, a #4 SP. But not more than that. Not a significant difference maker. It would be fine to get a Pivetta, but that isn't going to change the trajectory of the organization.

No, he traded for TGKS w/the plan of signing him to a LT deal.

Again, he acquired Pivetta for NOTHING and he's no worse than anyone not named S. Gray on the 2025 Cardinals roster.....something he could also do here hopefully.

Trading for a Schwarber, who you then have to re-sign at full market rate, isn't any different than just signing Bo Bichette as a FA. It's the same concept. They're 28 yr. old, ~3 fWAR guys who you pay full market value for.

Sure, get a Pivetta if you can. But a 2 fWAR Pivetta isn't going to turn these 2025 Cardinals into an NL contender.

The point is Bloom acquired a great power hitter and that 2 fWAR starter for nothing!

I ONLY cited these two deals to show you Bloom is different from Mo, he can find talent w/o giving up much if anything of value in return.

Complementary pieces, sure. I hope he can do that in St. Louis.

But none of it was earth shattering. Not like the Twins picking up Johan Santana years ago as a Rule 5 draft pick or anything.

Ha

TGKS is now a "complementary" piece in your argument?

Sure wish the Cardinals had a "complementary" piece hitter who just slugged 56 home runs.

BTW

Pivetta has a 2.89 career ERA/0.91 WHiP in the playoffs, the place we're striving to get the Cardinals too.

Schwarber is a fine DH. Been better the last couple of years. Was about $7 million per fWAR for the Phillies over four years, so a solid signing back then.

Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?

Again, Pivetta was a #4 SP in Boston. Got better last year in San Diego. Nice complementary piece.

TGKS also plays LF, not well but he does stand out there ala A. Burleson and the even lesser J. Walker in RF.

"Better the last couple years", huh?

From 2021 - 2025 or the last FIVE seasons:
219 HR's
505 RBI's
.353 .514 .867

And how on earth did this dissolve into, "Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?"

And I'd take Pivetta over everyone on the 2025 staff except Gray.

Pivetta 2025:
3.49 FiP

2025 Cardinals:
Gray/3.39 FiP

LIbby/4.03 FiP
Pallante/4.68 FiP
Mikolas/5.03 FiP
Fedde/5.20 FiP

What does Pivetta having a FIP of 3.49 in 2025 have to do with Bloom having traded for him in 2020???

[clemonsonroots]

I would deal with Cleveland. KC's minor league system kinda sucks. Bunch of catchers and one good pitcher in Shields. Would love to get Genao, Stephen, Valazquez. Would think they wouldn't trade Bazzana or Delauter. If they traded Messick, I would do it instantly.

Craviduce mentioned another interesting Royals pitcher a couple days ago- Kendry Chourio. I wasn't familiar with him, so I looked him up. Turns out Craviduce knows his stuff.

He has stuff, but several years away and far from a sure thing. I think he ends up a late inning guy.

[Cardinals4Life]

Exactly!!
It is literally crazy that people think we are going to magically develop a team loaded with star players that are super young, don't cost any money, and all figure it out at the same time. Folks, that isn't ever going to happen!

Teams need star players, young players, veteran players, complimentary players, etc. to win.

Our Cardinals have a team full of young, complimentary pieces. We have a miniscule payroll. Go get a couple stars!! That won't affect our development of the minor leagues. Keep working to improve/develop great players, but get some stars! The MLB isn't a place to develop, it is a place to try and win. The minors are for the developing!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, sure, you could go get a couple of "stars" right now, add them to the insufficient amount of young talent they have currently, and be an overall mediocre roster that wins 8X games in 2026, maybe sneaks into a WC, and loses in the 1st round of the playoffs if that is what you are into.

But, in three or four years, when maybe you do have more young talent with which to try to be really good, those "stars" you went out and got in Dec. 2025 are now - like Arenado, Goldschmidt, Mikolas, Matt Carpenter, etc. became - a shell of their former selves, untradeable, and payroll albatrosses which drag down your ability to compete at a higher level in 2028, 2029, etc.

That's the risk of committing to "stars" now when doing so still won't make you better than mediocre in the short run.

Your certainty of how adding stars would only make us a 80 something win team is perplexing. You don't know that.

And calling Mikolas a star, LOL.

You seem to be able to tell the future matt, give me the Mega Millions numbers.

Even with a couple of more "stars" (not a Judge, Ohtani, etc., "superstar" but like a 3-4 fWAR Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease) makes this a sub-90 win talent roster because there just isn't yet the developed, young talent to support them being better than that.

You seem to be able to tell the future matt, give me the Mega Millions numbers.

You have no idea what adding a Bichette and Cease could do for the 2026 team.

(And I'm not calling for them to do it. I just get tired of you always slamming people who want to stay relevant while you want to s u c k for years and years thinking that will magically turn them into WS contenders............it doesn't work that way and we have multiple MLB teams that prove it. Of course we need to draft/trade and develop our own talent. But we can also add YOUNG talent starting this winter too!)

Yep, this theory of building a team is a lot like socialism. It has failed everywhere, yet people still want to go to it as a solution.

[rockondlouie]

You're aware C. Bloom once landed:

Nick Pivetta for Brandon Workman and Heath Hembree

How about the time he stole:

TGKS for Aldo Ramirez

Maybe you've forget he also acquired:

Wilver Abreu for Christian Vazquez

See matt your stuck in the MO ERA still where a totally INEPT POBO blew trade after trade and wasted payroll like a drunken sailor on leave.

But there's a new sheriff in town and he's made some pretty sharp trades, getting all star caliber talent for virtually nothing!

Lose the "Mo mentality" matt, the new guy's pretty shrewd.

When he acquired W. Abreu, he acquired him as a AA prospect. So yes, he SHOULD acquire prospects.

Pivetta wasn't a "quality young SP" when Boston acquired him. He'd averaged about 1 fWAR per season over his first 3.5 years.

And he could only acquire Schwarber for Ramierz because Schwarber was going to be a FA at the end of 2021. Not relevant at all.

Ha!

Cherry pick much?

Acquiring N. Pivetta shows Bloom's got an eye for talent!

He intended to keep TGKS but his cheap a z z owner nixed his plans.

100% relevant

It doesn't matter whether the owner did or did not "nix" a plan to keep Schwarber. He only traded for half a season of him, that's why the trade price was what it was.

Again, Pivetta was alright in Boston, a #4 SP. But not more than that. Not a significant difference maker. It would be fine to get a Pivetta, but that isn't going to change the trajectory of the organization.

No, he traded for TGKS w/the plan of signing him to a LT deal.

Again, he acquired Pivetta for NOTHING and he's no worse than anyone not named S. Gray on the 2025 Cardinals roster.....something he could also do here hopefully.

Trading for a Schwarber, who you then have to re-sign at full market rate, isn't any different than just signing Bo Bichette as a FA. It's the same concept. They're 28 yr. old, ~3 fWAR guys who you pay full market value for.

Sure, get a Pivetta if you can. But a 2 fWAR Pivetta isn't going to turn these 2025 Cardinals into an NL contender.

The point is Bloom acquired a great power hitter and that 2 fWAR starter for nothing!

I ONLY cited these two deals to show you Bloom is different from Mo, he can find talent w/o giving up much if anything of value in return.

Complementary pieces, sure. I hope he can do that in St. Louis.

But none of it was earth shattering. Not like the Twins picking up Johan Santana years ago as a Rule 5 draft pick or anything.

Ha

TGKS is now a "complementary" piece in your argument?

Sure wish the Cardinals had a "complementary" piece hitter who just slugged 56 home runs.

BTW

Pivetta has a 2.89 career ERA/0.91 WHiP in the playoffs, the place we're striving to get the Cardinals too.

Schwarber is a fine DH. Been better the last couple of years. Was about $7 million per fWAR for the Phillies over four years, so a solid signing back then.

Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?

Again, Pivetta was a #4 SP in Boston. Got better last year in San Diego. Nice complementary piece.

TGKS also plays LF, not well but he does stand out there ala A. Burleson and the even lesser J. Walker in RF.

"Better the last couple years", huh?

From 2021 - 2025 or the last FIVE seasons:
219 HR's
505 RBI's
.353 .514 .867

And how on earth did this dissolve into, "Should the Cardinals go give him $25-$30 million a year now to be a DH?"

And I'd take Pivetta over everyone on the 2025 staff except Gray.

Pivetta 2025:
3.49 FiP

2025 Cardinals:
Gray/3.39 FiP

LIbby/4.03 FiP
Pallante/4.68 FiP
Mikolas/5.03 FiP
Fedde/5.20 FiP

What does Pivetta having a FIP of 3.49 in 2025 have to do with Bloom having traded for him in 2020???

So if a plyer doesn't IMMEDIATELY deliver but takes a few seasons to become a solid pitcher you're going to diss the trade?

Again

He gave up NOTHING for a pitcher who last season was as good as S. Gray

[rockondlouie]

By Anthony Franco | November 14, 2025 at 9:08pm CDT

The Astros are back in the mix for Brendan Donovan, reports Chandler Rome of The Athletic. That’s not surprising, as Houston’s interest in the St. Louis utility player has dated back to at least the trade deadline.

STL would be wise to take a slow approach.
The Dodgers were also known to have interest in Donovan - and just might be willing to trade Andy Pages if the right package came together.
Might even be able to do something with Mootbaar as one portion of the bait.

Agreed

The pool of potential suitors for Donovan is going to be DEEP, let it develop and the bidding war to begin.

BTW, Pages was my trade target last season too!

If LA chooses to get into the Tucker sweepstakes, Pages just might be available.
In fact, he could also become available if they try for Tucker - and miss.

LA has been my landing spot for Tucker.

stros' now added to the list of teams who want Donny.

[mattmitchl44]

So if a plyer doesn't IMMEDIATELY deliver but takes a few seasons to become a solid pitcher you're going to diss the trade?

No, I'm going to give him credit for what he actually did.

He acquired a pitcher in Pivetta who, up to that point, had pitched like a #5 SP, but who improved slightly to be a #4 SP with Boston for four years.

That was a win for Boston. But it was much more of a small win than a big win, even if he gave up nothing for him.

[rockondlouie]

So if a plyer doesn't IMMEDIATELY deliver but takes a few seasons to become a solid pitcher you're going to diss the trade?

No, I'm going to give him credit for what he actually did.

He acquired a pitcher in Pivetta who, up to that point, had pitched like a #5 SP, but who improved slightly to be a #4 SP with Boston for four years.

That was a win for Boston. But it was much more of a small win than a big win, even if he gave up nothing for him.

Can't you give Bloom some credit for 1) spotting talent (TGKS, Pivettta, Abreu) and 2) acquiring them for NOTHING of value?