Sell or hold

[JuanAgosto]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

[Talkin' Baseball]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Similar to Herrera. Most of us like him.

[ecleme22]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

[1_12_1968]

Walker, Gorman have shown who they are. If you can find someone that believes they are getting in on the ground floor of a great player, take the trade.

[JuanAgosto]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

[Cardinalss4Ever]

Only players off limits to me are about 10-12 minor leaguers. JJ, Doyle, both Baez, Franklin, Matthews, Rodriguez, Padilla, one of Bernal/Crooks and Mitchel. (Okay, maybe a couple other I am not thinking of.

Of the 3 NTC guys, I would listen to offers and throw in cash to sweeten the return. If we get stuck with one, so be it.

Pretty much anybody on the 26 man is available for the right package. Liberator, Donavan or Winn would take a hefty return. Lib was rushed to the majors to prove Mo’s Arozerena trade didn’t look as bad.

Jordan Walker – No way I’m selling low. Only 4 months older than JJ Weatherholt. 4 MONTHS! Start in AAA for at LEAST 3 months. Rushed to the Majors TOO SOON.

Nolan Gorman - I’d be tempted to do the same, start in AAA if possible. Does he become a 30 homer basher who can’t hit for average. That’s worth more than he is now. Rushed to the Majors TOO SOON. Do I sense a theme?

I really believe this should be a tear down to the studs. Maybe not the foundation, but this team with tweaks will be nothing but Mo 2.0.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

I can say I am excited to see the end of this world series. Once over we will see if Bloom is going to be active or not. Between end of WS and February is the time to revamp the team. I believe we will have many opinions on how it is going.

[ecleme22]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

[JuanAgosto]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

No problems! I was just having fun. Yikes! I forgot about Justin Williams. And John Gant. That Mo really put a half-[ashed] roster together.

[ecleme22]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

No problems! I was just having fun. Yikes! I forgot about Justin Williams. And John Gant. That Mo really put a half-[ashed] roster together.

LOL, okay good!

Yeah, the way MO built teams in the latter half of his tenure was odd. Here was his recipe:
1. Stars: Waino, Molina, Holliday, Goldie, etc.
2. Young players he loved: Grichuk, Piscotty, Bader, O'Neill, DeJong, Hudson, etc.
3. A talentless bench that in no way threatened the players in list #1 or #2.
4. ZERO interest in 1-2 contract for veteran starting players.

Nothing wrong with 1 and 2. But when you combine that with 3 and 4, suddenly your teams are crazy vulnerable to any injury, slump, etc. Essentially nothing can go wrong and everybody must stay healthy. All those young players MUST do well, etc.

If you, for example, look at the 2011 outfield options BEFORE signing Berkman: Holliday, Rasmus, Skip, Craig, Jay and, to a lesser extent, Carpenter. Then you sign Berkman, that's 5-6 OF options. Look at the shortstop options: Theriot, Punto, Descalso. THREE! Add Furcal later...FOUR!

[JuanAgosto]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

No problems! I was just having fun. Yikes! I forgot about Justin Williams. And John Gant. That Mo really put a half-[ashed] roster together.

LOL, okay good!

Yeah, the way MO built teams in the latter half of his tenure was odd. Here was his recipe:
1. Stars: Waino, Molina, Holliday, Goldie, etc.
2. Young players he loved: Grichuk, Piscotty, Bader, O'Neill, DeJong, Hudson, etc.
3. A talentless bench that in no way threatened the players in list #1 or #2.
4. ZERO interest in 1-2 contract for veteran starting players.

Nothing wrong with 1 and 2. But when you combine that with 3 and 4, suddenly your teams are crazy vulnerable to any injury, slump, etc. Essentially nothing can go wrong and everybody must stay healthy. All those young players MUST do well, etc.

If you, for example, look at the 2011 outfield options BEFORE signing Berkman: Holliday, Rasmus, Skip, Craig, Jay and, to a lesser extent, Carpenter. Then you sign Berkman, that's 5-6 OF options. Look at the shortstop options: Theriot, Punto, Descalso. THREE! Add Furcal later...FOUR!

I think a couple things were in play up until the end of 2011. TLR had Dewitt’s ear and could demand better rosters. And I think DeWitt knew Pujols was leaving and went for it on that last ride.

Once TLR was gone, Mozeliak seized the opportunity to gain power and became extremely arrogant. Then after a few successful seasons, became very lazy.

[ecleme22]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

No problems! I was just having fun. Yikes! I forgot about Justin Williams. And John Gant. That Mo really put a half-[ashed] roster together.

LOL, okay good!

Yeah, the way MO built teams in the latter half of his tenure was odd. Here was his recipe:
1. Stars: Waino, Molina, Holliday, Goldie, etc.
2. Young players he loved: Grichuk, Piscotty, Bader, O'Neill, DeJong, Hudson, etc.
3. A talentless bench that in no way threatened the players in list #1 or #2.
4. ZERO interest in 1-2 contract for veteran starting players.

Nothing wrong with 1 and 2. But when you combine that with 3 and 4, suddenly your teams are crazy vulnerable to any injury, slump, etc. Essentially nothing can go wrong and everybody must stay healthy. All those young players MUST do well, etc.

If you, for example, look at the 2011 outfield options BEFORE signing Berkman: Holliday, Rasmus, Skip, Craig, Jay and, to a lesser extent, Carpenter. Then you sign Berkman, that's 5-6 OF options. Look at the shortstop options: Theriot, Punto, Descalso. THREE! Add Furcal later...FOUR!

I think a couple things were in play up until the end of 2011. TLR had Dewitt’s ear and could demand better rosters. And I think DeWitt knew Pujols was leaving and went for it on that last ride.

Once TLR was gone, Mozeliak seized the opportunity to gain power and became extremely arrogant. Then after a few successful seasons, became very lazy.

Thank you for your response.

The end of 2011: By that you mean from the trade deadline on? I think, during that time, it had ZERO to do with Pujols leaving and 100% to do with TLR still being in charge. He knew (mostly) what makes a good 25 man roster top to bottom. Why was Furcal traded for? His defense...the biggest hole in the Cards infield was the SS defense. The team needed a starter (Jackson) and needed relivers (Dotel, Rzep, Rhodes). That's EXACTLY what the team needed. Now let's say MO said "Hey this is Pujols' last hurrah! Let's get him players!" I'm sorry, but those players I mentioned above aren't sexy players. Those aren't "all in" players. Those are TLR role players. I think if it were MO's way, Rasmus wouldn't have been traded.

Your second point: "Once TLR was gone..." I agree. MO didn't know how to build a roster like TLR had. And, he had ego. To my first point, the Wiggy deal made no sense (I can elaborate if you want me to). Then the Freese trade....Not the fact Freese was traded, but boy, Mr. Mo. Ego really strutted his stuff. So proud we got Bourjos and Grichuk. Both treated not like cogs, but like straws, especially RG. It began a moment (2014) where Mo fell in love with you guys.

Just horribly roster management all around.

Thanks for hearing me go on...

[JuanAgosto]

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

The Cardinals had the worst RF production in MLB in the first half of 2021.

Now do I blame TO and HB for their injuries? No. I blame Mo for roster construction.

Carlson finished with 18 hrs and 65 rbi. World's above the production out of Walker last season.

Fact: The Cards had three good-to-really good OFers in 2021.
Fact: Two of those OFers lost a combined 3 months due to injuries in the first half.
Fact: The Cards had the worst RF production in the majors the first half of 2021.
Fact: Most of the time Edman was playing the OF, Matt Carpenter and his weak bat were at 2B.

The team simply had ZERO depth. And that was by design. Mo didn't want to put any other OFer on the roster who would be a threat or would want any playing time. Remember 2022 and Corey Dickerson? Similar situation. After the 2021 bench disaster, Mo wanted an upgrade who would ask for NO playing time...

Fair enough. The three main guys ended with good seasons. But as you pointed out (factually ), there was lost time due to injuries.

I agree that Johnny bow ties and his perpetual dolessness hurt the team by not adding a solid #4. But what else did we expect from the dry powder king? What a putz.

lol, sorry for being a little stern. I was working and trying to get to the point.

I remember we had traded for NA, and by opening day 2021, Justin Williams is starting in the OF, Hicks is being deployed for two inning starts and Gant was in the rotation. And of course DeJong is garbage.

The roster was a mess.

No problems! I was just having fun. Yikes! I forgot about Justin Williams. And John Gant. That Mo really put a half-[ashed] roster together.

LOL, okay good!

Yeah, the way MO built teams in the latter half of his tenure was odd. Here was his recipe:
1. Stars: Waino, Molina, Holliday, Goldie, etc.
2. Young players he loved: Grichuk, Piscotty, Bader, O'Neill, DeJong, Hudson, etc.
3. A talentless bench that in no way threatened the players in list #1 or #2.
4. ZERO interest in 1-2 contract for veteran starting players.

Nothing wrong with 1 and 2. But when you combine that with 3 and 4, suddenly your teams are crazy vulnerable to any injury, slump, etc. Essentially nothing can go wrong and everybody must stay healthy. All those young players MUST do well, etc.

If you, for example, look at the 2011 outfield options BEFORE signing Berkman: Holliday, Rasmus, Skip, Craig, Jay and, to a lesser extent, Carpenter. Then you sign Berkman, that's 5-6 OF options. Look at the shortstop options: Theriot, Punto, Descalso. THREE! Add Furcal later...FOUR!

I think a couple things were in play up until the end of 2011. TLR had Dewitt’s ear and could demand better rosters. And I think DeWitt knew Pujols was leaving and went for it on that last ride.

Once TLR was gone, Mozeliak seized the opportunity to gain power and became extremely arrogant. Then after a few successful seasons, became very lazy.

Thank you for your response.

The end of 2011: By that you mean from the trade deadline on? I think, during that time, it had ZERO to do with Pujols leaving and 100% to do with TLR still being in charge. He knew (mostly) what makes a good 25 man roster top to bottom. Why was Furcal traded for? His defense...the biggest hole in the Cards infield was the SS defense. The team needed a starter (Jackson) and needed relivers (Dotel, Rzep, Rhodes). That's EXACTLY what the team needed. Now let's say MO said "Hey this is Pujols' last hurrah! Let's get him players!" I'm sorry, but those players I mentioned above aren't sexy players. Those aren't "all in" players. Those are TLR role players. I think if it were MO's way, Rasmus wouldn't have been traded.

Your second point: "Once TLR was gone..." I agree. MO didn't know how to build a roster like TLR had. And, he had ego. To my first point, the Wiggy deal made no sense (I can elaborate if you want me to). Then the Freese trade....Not the fact Freese was traded, but boy, Mr. Mo. Ego really strutted his stuff. So proud we got Bourjos and Grichuk. Both treated not like cogs, but like straws, especially RG. It began a moment (2014) where Mo fell in love with you guys.

Just horribly roster management all around.

Thanks for hearing me go on...

Sure the 2011 deadline deals were fueled by TLR. He knew the team needed a SS, SP, and bullpen help. Im not sure ol John boy would've made any trade if Matheny, Shildt, or Marmol was managing. And the team probably would've missed the postseason

[CCard]

1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

They can't spend themselves out of the hole they dug, all that will do is dig them deeper down. Build up young talent and then spend around it. It might take a couple of years to pan out but if they would have done this four years ago we'd be in a lot better shape right now. Might be good for you to take a break from the team because its seems to really be stressing you out.

We'll just disagree. In my opinion you're wrong. You can certainly afford more talent if you're the Cards. They make plenty of profit. I believe this cost cutting is prep for a strike. But they've always cheaped out. They got a deal on Arenado or he wouldn't have been a Card. Goldy wouldn't have been resigned if he didn't want to stay with the Cards. Though the declined greatly, they were top tier talent that the Cards got on the cheap. You prefer teams that lose intentionally and I don't. We are not the same.

[CCard]

1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

It’s not tanking. It’s building a team for the long haul.

No one is wanting to acquire five A ball players like Libby where we have to wait until 2030.

But when you trade players now, especially those who are close to expiring contracts, you get prospects and trade pieces. (See when MIL traded Hader then flipped one player for Conteras).

If you were a Brewers fan, you’d be screaming how they traded Hader. Not being able to see the forest through the trees.

And if you think this is how the pirates do it, it’s not. Pirates, unlike Tampa, have no game plan nor are savvy. Also, the cards will eventually spend more, unlike those two.

Seriously, I feel like I’m talking to someone new to baseball….

I'll play. What do you call deliberately fielding a losing team? For years? If that ain't tanking then I don't know what it is. So the Brewers traded a really good closer and got a good player in return. Yay for them. He could have just as easily been a bust and they'd be standing there with jack [shirt]. The Brewers are a good organization and are willing to take some chances but they ponied up and got talent also (Yelich for one). They've also been very lucky in multiple ways. They've had enough people to stay healthy, and they've had some players that played over their heads and some young players have developed nicely, and that's what you need to be successful. But gutting a team in hopes of some payday 3..4..5 years down the road is asinine at best. Do you realize in 5 years how many lifelong Cards fans will have died? It's just ludicrous to even defend tanking. Thankfully there are other things to do while ownership dumps on its fans. You should splash some cold water on your face and get a dose of reality. I've been watching baseball for 50 years and tanking isn't the way to go since free agency came about.

[CCard]

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

Okay, if you're down to spend dollars then why not give the fans some top tier talent to come to the games WHILE you're drafting this supposed great talent? Why make fans suffer while you pinch pennies and waiting for this great talent to arrive. You never know when a team will get hot and ride it to the series, why deprive fans of the opportunity? They can just as well develop talent with 84 wins as they can with 64, so what's your reasoning. Unless you're just tanking so you can get a premium draft pick every year? Since the lottery was instituted that is harder to do also.