ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pmHot take: If the Cards made only modest moves in the offseason and stood pat at the deadline, they would at least be better than Tito's Reds....
No. The Reds had a rotation of 5 guys that were as good, or better than Sonny Gray. Pagán was better than Helsley all season long.
Their offense was also better in basically every category, especially on the bases.
And yet, on September 14th, the records were:
Reds: 74-75
Cards:73-77
What's that, 1.5 game difference?
If W-L record is the measure of a team, then the 2025 Brewers were basically the same as the 1999-2001 Yankees.
And if W-L records were a measure of a team, then all 83-79 teams are the 2006 Cardinals.
We are just talking W-L record for the 2025 season.
You speak as though Cincy was so superior because of their rotation, but the Cards (who were sellers and did nothing in the offseason) hung with them as late as 9/14.
My premise is if the Cards were just modest in the offseason and weren't sellers at the deadline, they would've been better than Cincy.
Obviously we will never know the truth. I just know Oli's tanking team was neck and neck with Tito's buying Cincy team as late as 9/14.
Well, what would you describe as a “modest” offseason?
IMO they would have needed two more quality SPs to have a rotation anywhere close to the Reds.
They also would need to add a plus bat, somewhere.
How do you do these things modestly?
…and yes, the Reds were unquestionably superior because of their rotation.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pm
1. Bloom has been here two seasons. His decision to keep Oli, for now, is more informed than any of us.
2. Bloom is about to make some big moves. Maybe keeping Oli, for now, isn't a top priority. Maybe the time is not now to unleash a new manager.
3. 2025 Cards: They did almost NOTHING in the offseason and sold at the deadline.
Hot take: If the Cards made only modest moves in the offseason and stood pat at the deadline, they would at least be better than Tito's Reds....
Hotter take if the cards stand pat the Mets are the wild card because they don’t lose all of the games without helsley helping them lose helsley also would have blown more game for the cardinals and Svanson and O’Brien would have been on the shuttle bus for the rest of the season and who knows how they would have pitched doing that. So no cards still miss the play offs their bullpen was solid after the trades. Their rotation and offense were trash
1. It's presumptuous to think Helsley would've been a carbon copy to what he did in NY.
2. It's presumptuous to assume Svanson and O'Brien's usage.
Also, keep in mind, I said the Cards would've made 'modest' moves at the deadline. And we can assume if they weren't in tank mode, McGreevy would've been a starter sooner.
1. Its presumptuous to think with a few modest moves the cardinals would have had the Cardinals finish ahead of the reds they would have had to have all been good moves
2. It’s presumptuous to think the cards would have been better if they kept all three of them
3. It’s very presumptuous to think whoever the Mets picked up instead of helsley if the cards kept him would have also lost four games down the stretch to knock them out of the third wild card
It's silly to think the Cards would've been worse if they weren't deadline sellers and had Maton, Helsley and Matz in the last two months.
It’s silly to think they would have been better with Helsely still closing and with svanson and O’Brien continuing to ride the Memphis shuttle instead of in the bullpen full time
ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pmHot take: If the Cards made only modest moves in the offseason and stood pat at the deadline, they would at least be better than Tito's Reds....
No. The Reds had a rotation of 5 guys that were as good, or better than Sonny Gray. Pagán was better than Helsley all season long.
Their offense was also better in basically every category, especially on the bases.
And yet, on September 14th, the records were:
Reds: 74-75
Cards:73-77
What's that, 1.5 game difference?
If W-L record is the measure of a team, then the 2025 Brewers were basically the same as the 1999-2001 Yankees.
And if W-L records were a measure of a team, then all 83-79 teams are the 2006 Cardinals.
We are just talking W-L record for the 2025 season.
You speak as though Cincy was so superior because of their rotation, but the Cards (who were sellers and did nothing in the offseason) hung with them as late as 9/14.
My premise is if the Cards were just modest in the offseason and weren't sellers at the deadline, they would've been better than Cincy.
Obviously we will never know the truth. I just know Oli's tanking team was neck and neck with Tito's buying Cincy team as late as 9/14.
Well, what would you describe as a “modest” offseason?
IMO they would have needed two more quality SPs to have a rotation anywhere close to the Reds.
They also would need to add a plus bat, somewhere.
How do you do these things modestly?
…and yes, the Reds were unquestionably superior because of their rotation.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pmHot take: If the Cards made only modest moves in the offseason and stood pat at the deadline, they would at least be better than Tito's Reds....
No. The Reds had a rotation of 5 guys that were as good, or better than Sonny Gray. Pagán was better than Helsley all season long.
Their offense was also better in basically every category, especially on the bases.
And yet, on September 14th, the records were:
Reds: 74-75
Cards:73-77
What's that, 1.5 game difference?
If W-L record is the measure of a team, then the 2025 Brewers were basically the same as the 1999-2001 Yankees.
And if W-L records were a measure of a team, then all 83-79 teams are the 2006 Cardinals.
We are just talking W-L record for the 2025 season.
You speak as though Cincy was so superior because of their rotation, but the Cards (who were sellers and did nothing in the offseason) hung with them as late as 9/14.
My premise is if the Cards were just modest in the offseason and weren't sellers at the deadline, they would've been better than Cincy.
Obviously we will never know the truth. I just know Oli's tanking team was neck and neck with Tito's buying Cincy team as late as 9/14.
Well, what would you describe as a “modest” offseason?
IMO they would have needed two more quality SPs to have a rotation anywhere close to the Reds.
They also would need to add a plus bat, somewhere.
How do you do these things modestly?
…and yes, the Reds were unquestionably superior because of their rotation.
Let’s just say, they didn’t sell.
Or they didn’t sell and bought.
Bought what, and how?
And I’m guessing he’s also saying let’s just say the players bought turned out to be good and not bad and also the Mets picked up a reliever who was just as bad as helsley and cost them four games and helsley didn’t blow any games for the cardinals and everything worked out perfectly…..
And I’m guessing he’s also saying let’s just say the players bought turned out to be good and not bad and also the Mets picked up a reliever who was just as bad as helsley and cost them four games and helsley didn’t blow any games for the cardinals and everything worked out perfectly…..
Yeah… the premise requires they would have acquired a Will Clark type player that sprinkled magic pixie dust to make everyone better. They didn’t have the bullets to get an ace, or an impact bat.
And I’m guessing he’s also saying let’s just say the players bought turned out to be good and not bad and also the Mets picked up a reliever who was just as bad as helsley and cost them four games and helsley didn’t blow any games for the cardinals and everything worked out perfectly…..
Yeah… the premise requires they would have acquired a Will Clark type player that sprinkled magic pixie dust to make everyone better. They didn’t have the bullets to get an ace, or an impact bat.
I guess is premise is if the cardinals made different moves and they all worked perfectly and the different moves The Mets would have made were still disastrous then cards could have won lol might as well just say if the cardinals made it into the playoffs then they would have made it into the playoffs
And I’m guessing he’s also saying let’s just say the players bought turned out to be good and not bad and also the Mets picked up a reliever who was just as bad as helsley and cost them four games and helsley didn’t blow any games for the cardinals and everything worked out perfectly…..
Yeah… the premise requires they would have acquired a Will Clark type player that sprinkled magic pixie dust to make everyone better. They didn’t have the bullets to get an ace, or an impact bat.
I guess is premise is if the cardinals made different moves and they all worked perfectly and the different moves The Mets would have made were still disastrous then cards could have won lol might as well just say if the cardinals made it into the playoffs then they would have made it into the playoffs
They could have inched into the playoffs and been embarrassed by the Dodgers, tralala.
The tone of the OP reflects exactly what the Cardinals attempted to exploit for the last 14 years - the faith of three million [censored] believing that qualifying for the playoffs meant everything… more than actual excellence.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pmHot take: If the Cards made only modest moves in the offseason and stood pat at the deadline, they would at least be better than Tito's Reds....
No. The Reds had a rotation of 5 guys that were as good, or better than Sonny Gray. Pagán was better than Helsley all season long.
Their offense was also better in basically every category, especially on the bases.
Thats only because Francona willed all those guys to be better.
Managers get way to much blame and way to much credit. A good roster fixes a lot. Players execute or they don't. You play the roster you have. Fans know very little about who is available and who is banged up.
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑01 Oct 2025 01:09 am
The tone of the OP reflects exactly what the Cardinals attempted to exploit for the last 14 years - the faith of three million [fork]tards believing that qualifying for the playoffs meant everything… more than actual excellence.
Funny how you missed the point.
You: "The OP wanted the team to buy in the offseason and at the deadline!"
Actually, I think Marmol has improved as a Mgr. He seems to have handled the pitching staff much better. I do think the his supporting coaches staff is better also. Mo was the issue here not Marmol. You got to have the players.
Actually, I think Marmol has improved as a Mgr. He seems to have handled the pitching staff much better. I do think the his supporting coaches staff is better also. Mo was the issue here not Marmol. You got to have the players.
I would venture to say that at the beginning of the season, most folks on CT, including I, thought the Cardinals would finish ahead of the Brewers. So Murphy took a roster -- minus Adames, Burnes and Williams -- that most people on here didn't think much of and ran away with the division. Meanwhile, Marmol....
And look at Miami. The Marlins lost 100 games last year, then they hired McCullough out of the Dodgers organization, and they almost finished .500.
icon wrote: ↑01 Oct 2025 08:45 am
I would venture to say that at the beginning of the season, most folks on CT, including I, thought the Cardinals would finish ahead of the Brewers. So Murphy took a roster -- minus Adames, Burnes and Williams -- that most people on here didn't think much of and ran away with the division. Meanwhile, Marmol....
And look at Miami. The Marlins lost 100 games last year, then they hired McCullough out of the Dodgers organization, and they almost finished .500.
Managers can and do make a difference.
I agree that managers can make a difference, but Burnes wasn't with the team last year and the team won 93 games.
Also, GMs can make a difference. Quintana, Jansen and Vaughen aren't sexy names, but they helped the roster.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2025 20:15 pm
1. Bloom has been here two seasons. His decision to keep Oli, for now, is more informed than any of us.
It's probably politics and optics more than anything else. He knows we aren't going to be a championship contender next year. He probably has a plan to replace the manager and it will play out in its own good time.
