rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:29 am
BDWJr is going to see a decrease in his franchise value after losing 1M in attendance.
And it's going to fall below 2M in 2026 unless C. Bloom can pull of some miracle trades and his revamped minor league system churns out some truly impactful players.
I don't think Bill wants to see hundreds of millions of dollars in capital gains just fade away, he'll spend again after the new CBA is in place.
JMO
Bill could and should deal with future uncertainty now instead of doing nothing. Get creative. Sign fan draw players in 2026 with team options for 2027 and beyond. That gives us the best of both worlds. Higher ticket sales now and the ability to bail in 2027 if the new CBA is somehow untenable for ownership.
Though I don’t see how it can be that bad. There’s just some universes that will never exist.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:03 pm
I feel like there’s a very real danger this franchise never decides they have gotten to the point to go all in and invest in the present over the future
And even more, I suspect at least a number of posters would be OK with that. In that they value “prospects” more for their prospect status than for what they ever actually do as proven veterans.
Suppose we do trade Gray and Nado this winter for the proverbial bucket of balls and salary relief. What would we even reinvest the money in? Probably nothing, and again some would be fine with that because there will be no “good deals” in the ever inflating market of free agency.
As soon as that’s over, they will turn their attention to trading Donovan and Noot because, well, they’ve gotten to an age where they might not get any better. The focus is not on what they can or can’t contribute at a positive war level, but rather on their trajectory of future improvement. Then what’s next? Will they lose interest in Libby in another year or two when his arbitration salary hits 6 million and he approaches Free Agency? Should Winn be traded before he hits 27 and risks losing trade value? Is JoJo traded for a nobody prospect because he has “value” and might fetch even less than that nobody if we wait?
The problem here is it’s always about maximizing trade value relative to that single players future trade value and not relative to what they can actually produce for us. And there’s no serious consideration to whether we can get anything back that actually makes us better. Just an assumption that a shotgun approach to hording random prospects will somehow work out better than not having prospects.
At what point will those prospect addicts become willing to actually spend the cache of prospects to suddenly buy a proven producer of wins on the field at the MLB level? Even if that producer is gasp! 30 years old?
At what point do we say the future is now let’s go for it? To them there is no answer, they just say it isn’t *Now and next year they will sing the same song.
Welcome to the Pirates world. I believe they are there, especially with current ownership.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:03 pm
I feel like there’s a very real danger this franchise never decides they have gotten to the point to go all in and invest in the present over the future
And even more, I suspect at least a number of posters would be OK with that. In that they value “prospects” more for their prospect status than for what they ever actually do as proven veterans.
Suppose we do trade Gray and Nado this winter for the proverbial bucket of balls and salary relief. What would we even reinvest the money in? Probably nothing, and again some would be fine with that because there will be no “good deals” in the ever inflating market of free agency.
As soon as that’s over, they will turn their attention to trading Donovan and Noot because, well, they’ve gotten to an age where they might not get any better. The focus is not on what they can or can’t contribute at a positive war level, but rather on their trajectory of future improvement. Then what’s next? Will they lose interest in Libby in another year or two when his arbitration salary hits 6 million and he approaches Free Agency? Should Winn be traded before he hits 27 and risks losing trade value? Is JoJo traded for a nobody prospect because he has “value” and might fetch even less than that nobody if we wait?
The problem here is it’s always about maximizing trade value relative to that single players future trade value and not relative to what they can actually produce for us. And there’s no serious consideration to whether we can get anything back that actually makes us better. Just an assumption that a shotgun approach to hording random prospects will somehow work out better than not having prospects.
At what point will those prospect addicts become willing to actually spend the cache of prospects to suddenly buy a proven producer of wins on the field at the MLB level? Even if that producer is gasp! 30 years old?
At what point do we say the future is now let’s go for it? To them there is no answer, they just say it isn’t *Now and next year they will sing the same song.
Well the only way for the cardinals to get good again is to fix the mess of a system that mo left and develop players that are good. The cardinals don’t have the money to spend their way out of the mess mo left. People are delusional if they think they can spend a little money and get good again at best they would be around .500 again and miss the play offs again. I’m tired of the sustained mediocrity that some on here want to perpetuate by keeping mos awful approach going I want them to build a team that can be good. Is there a danger it won’t work? Yea but not as near of a certainty as keeping sustained mediocrity going will never win anything
Meanwhile where are the metrics to tell if we are succeeding or failing in this mission? How many prospects should we be promoting each year and how many war should they be generating at the MLB level by what year to prove that our system is developing what it should be?
And finally what’s the ultimate point of developing and promoting of these prospects, if we eventually trade them before the next round of prospects we generate comes along, and we never reach critical mass?
Sounds like a AAAA farm team (PIT, COL) to me.
No they will spend once the team is close to competing. They have a plan in place for how they will handle the prospects and sign good prospects to extensions. If you think the cardinals are going to win anything by signing guys like Gibson and Lynn and they aren’t going to attract any good free agents because they can’t outbid the Yankees and dodgers and Mets and because they aren’t going to want to come to a team that has firmly established they are now a losing franchise. So complain all you want but it doesn’t change the fact they are now trying to fix mos mess and build a good winning team instead of sustaining mediocrity
Except we didn’t extend the best 2 prospects we developed this decade - Flaherty and Helsley. We just decided we wouldn’t extend them and traded them and then focused on how they weren’t good enough.
Yet we pretend like the next round of prospects magically won’t have any weaknesses???
You can’t have it both ways.
Have you not paid any attention to what’s been going on with the cardinals? Mo gutted the development system just trashed it. Bloom came in to fix it and brought in great baseball minds from organizations like Cleveland. If you think the cardinals could have thrived with a terrible development system not producing players then you’re insane. And you’re complaining about them trading Flaherty and helesley and not extending them? They suck. And who said they wouldn’t have any weaknesses? What is your big. Plan for the cardinals keep arenado who sucks and gray who is meh and sign some old veteran broken down pitchers and pray some how they compete?
2 things
1. Bloom could have been brought in to fix the MiLB programs without stopping nearly all spending at the MLB level. The cost of better coaches and consultants and iPad is a tiny fraction of one single market priced free agent. We have to stop pretending BDW couldn’t do both and maintain attendance if he’d wanted to.
2. You can’t blame the minor league system for Jack and Helsley. They were all stars. We should be celebrating that our system produced that. The minors had nothing to do with them falling off in performance in year 6. But even the best development program isn’t going to prevent the next round of prospects from also getting hurt by age 28 and suddenly “sucking”. That’s my whole point.
The sale “expert” posters on this board who were so excited about Bloom and what his program is going to produce we’re excited about Jack and Noot and Donovan and others 5-7 years ago.
In a couple years Libby is going to go something like 3-8 or get hurt and also be on the verge of a $50-$100m contract. Burly will plateau and suddenly start requiring ARB level money. JJW, if he’s any good will require a 13 year contract for obscene amounts that no one here wants to spend because they still use 2016 costs as their mental anchoring point.
We can’t just keep pulling back and avoid all risks- the org is going to have to be both smart and aggressive or this minor league development program isn’t going to go the distance either. Without a commitment to spend in the right places and maybe even make a couple r calculated gambles that maybe don’t necessarily work out because the market requires it, we might simply produce a lot of talent that we refuse to keep around long enough to win because we don’t like the price tag, or the fact that they hit a rough stretch right before free agency.
lol bloom isn’t the one who decided to come in and reduce spending that’s on Dewitt. I’m just telling you the reality of what is going to happen. It’s a rebuild it’s happening get used to it. The minor league system has to get back to producing good useful players or the team will continue sucking they need to get away from going for the pitch to contact pitchers who produce mid 4 to 5 ERAs. The rebuild is happening I’m glad it should have happened in 2023 the cardinals would probably be out of it by now but mo was dumb and hoped he could sustain the mediocrity a little while longer.
imadangman wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:29 pm
Well you have a point. But there is a certain extent to which this team needs to go towards rebuilding that they have yet to do.
The key is many teams have pulled this off quicker than you think. What about the 2024 Padres. The consensus seemed they were rebuilding retooling whatever because they traded Soto but they ended up with more wins than the previous year and a playoff spot.
Or Peter Bendicks who took over for the Marlins. Last year there were stories about why people like him were the problem in baseball. This year, they are 47-37 (better than us) since the middle of June. I didn't follow the specifics but from a birds eye view I imagine that guy got in there and started ripping moves and actually improved his roster as the season went on. It seems like he is just continuously trying to improve, without worrying about certain goalposts like the trade deadline or the end of season or whatever.
Even the Astros have kept their thing going with losing Correa (back now), Bregman, and Tucker.
I can only hope Bloom is that savvy. The player development is important but you've got to pull the strings. In the Astros and Padres case, I'd think the field level management (...Shildt) plays a big roll.
The Padres and Astros were willing to spend money also. This current ownership will not do that.
imadangman wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:29 pm
Well you have a point. But there is a certain extent to which this team needs to go towards rebuilding that they have yet to do.
The key is many teams have pulled this off quicker than you think. What about the 2024 Padres. The consensus seemed they were rebuilding retooling whatever because they traded Soto but they ended up with more wins than the previous year and a playoff spot.
Or Peter Bendicks who took over for the Marlins. Last year there were stories about why people like him were the problem in baseball. This year, they are 47-37 (better than us) since the middle of June. I didn't follow the specifics but from a birds eye view I imagine that guy got in there and started ripping moves and actually improved his roster as the season went on. It seems like he is just continuously trying to improve, without worrying about certain goalposts like the trade deadline or the end of season or whatever.
Even the Astros have kept their thing going with losing Correa (back now), Bregman, and Tucker.
I can only hope Bloom is that savvy. The player development is important but you've got to pull the strings. In the Astros and Padres case, I'd think the field level management (...Shildt) plays a big roll.
The Padres and Astros were willing to spend money also. This current ownership will not do that.
You don't know what they'll do once they get to that phase of the rebuild
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:03 pm
I feel like there’s a very real danger this franchise never decides they have gotten to the point to go all in and invest in the present over the future
And even more, I suspect at least a number of posters would be OK with that. In that they value “prospects” more for their prospect status than for what they ever actually do as proven veterans.
Suppose we do trade Gray and Nado this winter for the proverbial bucket of balls and salary relief. What would we even reinvest the money in? Probably nothing, and again some would be fine with that because there will be no “good deals” in the ever inflating market of free agency.
As soon as that’s over, they will turn their attention to trading Donovan and Noot because, well, they’ve gotten to an age where they might not get any better. The focus is not on what they can or can’t contribute at a positive war level, but rather on their trajectory of future improvement. Then what’s next? Will they lose interest in Libby in another year or two when his arbitration salary hits 6 million and he approaches Free Agency? Should Winn be traded before he hits 27 and risks losing trade value? Is JoJo traded for a nobody prospect because he has “value” and might fetch even less than that nobody if we wait?
The problem here is it’s always about maximizing trade value relative to that single players future trade value and not relative to what they can actually produce for us. And there’s no serious consideration to whether we can get anything back that actually makes us better. Just an assumption that a shotgun approach to hording random prospects will somehow work out better than not having prospects.
At what point will those prospect addicts become willing to actually spend the cache of prospects to suddenly buy a proven producer of wins on the field at the MLB level? Even if that producer is gasp! 30 years old?
At what point do we say the future is now let’s go for it? To them there is no answer, they just say it isn’t *Now and next year they will sing the same song.
Well the only way for the cardinals to get good again is to fix the mess of a system that mo left and develop players that are good. The cardinals don’t have the money to spend their way out of the mess mo left. People are delusional if they think they can spend a little money and get good again at best they would be around .500 again and miss the play offs again. I’m tired of the sustained mediocrity that some on here want to perpetuate by keeping mos awful approach going I want them to build a team that can be good. Is there a danger it won’t work? Yea but not as near of a certainty as keeping sustained mediocrity going will never win anything
Meanwhile where are the metrics to tell if we are succeeding or failing in this mission? How many prospects should we be promoting each year and how many war should they be generating at the MLB level by what year to prove that our system is developing what it should be?
And finally what’s the ultimate point of developing and promoting of these prospects, if we eventually trade them before the next round of prospects we generate comes along, and we never reach critical mass?
Sounds like a AAAA farm team (PIT, COL) to me.
No they will spend once the team is close to competing. They have a plan in place for how they will handle the prospects and sign good prospects to extensions. If you think the cardinals are going to win anything by signing guys like Gibson and Lynn and they aren’t going to attract any good free agents because they can’t outbid the Yankees and dodgers and Mets and because they aren’t going to want to come to a team that has firmly established they are now a losing franchise. So complain all you want but it doesn’t change the fact they are now trying to fix mos mess and build a good winning team instead of sustaining mediocrity
Except we didn’t extend the best 2 prospects we developed this decade - Flaherty and Helsley. We just decided we wouldn’t extend them and traded them and then focused on how they weren’t good enough.
Yet we pretend like the next round of prospects magically won’t have any weaknesses???
You can’t have it both ways.
Have you not paid any attention to what’s been going on with the cardinals? Mo gutted the development system just trashed it. Bloom came in to fix it and brought in great baseball minds from organizations like Cleveland. If you think the cardinals could have thrived with a terrible development system not producing players then you’re insane. And you’re complaining about them trading Flaherty and helesley and not extending them? They suck. And who said they wouldn’t have any weaknesses? What is your big. Plan for the cardinals keep arenado who sucks and gray who is meh and sign some old veteran broken down pitchers and pray some how they compete?
2 things
1. Bloom could have been brought in to fix the MiLB programs without stopping nearly all spending at the MLB level. The cost of better coaches and consultants and analytics and iPads is a tiny fraction of one single market priced free agent. We have to stop pretending BDW couldn’t do both and maintain attendance if he’d wanted to.
2. You can’t blame the minor league system for Jack and Helsley. They were all stars. We should be celebrating that our system produced that. The minors had nothing to do with them falling off in performance in year 6. But even the best development program isn’t going to prevent the next round of prospects from also getting hurt by age 28 and suddenly “sucking”. That’s my whole point.
The same “expert” posters on this board who were so excited about Bloom and what his program is going to produce we’re excited about Jack and Noot and Donovan and others 5-7 years ago.
In a couple years Libby is going to go something like 3-8 or get hurt and also be on the verge of a $50-$100m contract. Burly will plateau and suddenly start requiring ARB level money. JJW, if he’s any good will require a 13 year contract for obscene amounts that no one here wants to spend because they still use 2016 costs as their mental anchoring point.
We can’t just keep pulling back and avoid all risks- the org is going to have to be both smart and aggressive or this minor league development program isn’t going to go the distance either. Without a commitment to spend in the right places and maybe even make a couple r calculated gambles that maybe don’t necessarily work out because the market requires it, we might simply produce a lot of talent that we refuse to keep around long enough to win because we don’t like the price tag, or the fact that they hit a rough stretch right before free agency.
Amen. The new Pirates. If DeWitt won’t spend to win, they won’t win.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:03 pm
I feel like there’s a very real danger this franchise never decides they have gotten to the point to go all in and invest in the present over the future
And even more, I suspect at least a number of posters would be OK with that. In that they value “prospects” more for their prospect status than for what they ever actually do as proven veterans.
Suppose we do trade Gray and Nado this winter for the proverbial bucket of balls and salary relief. What would we even reinvest the money in? Probably nothing, and again some would be fine with that because there will be no “good deals” in the ever inflating market of free agency.
As soon as that’s over, they will turn their attention to trading Donovan and Noot because, well, they’ve gotten to an age where they might not get any better. The focus is not on what they can or can’t contribute at a positive war level, but rather on their trajectory of future improvement. Then what’s next? Will they lose interest in Libby in another year or two when his arbitration salary hits 6 million and he approaches Free Agency? Should Winn be traded before he hits 27 and risks losing trade value? Is JoJo traded for a nobody prospect because he has “value” and might fetch even less than that nobody if we wait?
The problem here is it’s always about maximizing trade value relative to that single players future trade value and not relative to what they can actually produce for us. And there’s no serious consideration to whether we can get anything back that actually makes us better. Just an assumption that a shotgun approach to hording random prospects will somehow work out better than not having prospects.
At what point will those prospect addicts become willing to actually spend the cache of prospects to suddenly buy a proven producer of wins on the field at the MLB level? Even if that producer is gasp! 30 years old?
At what point do we say the future is now let’s go for it? To them there is no answer, they just say it isn’t *Now and next year they will sing the same song.
Well the only way for the cardinals to get good again is to fix the mess of a system that mo left and develop players that are good. The cardinals don’t have the money to spend their way out of the mess mo left. People are delusional if they think they can spend a little money and get good again at best they would be around .500 again and miss the play offs again. I’m tired of the sustained mediocrity that some on here want to perpetuate by keeping mos awful approach going I want them to build a team that can be good. Is there a danger it won’t work? Yea but not as near of a certainty as keeping sustained mediocrity going will never win anything
Meanwhile where are the metrics to tell if we are succeeding or failing in this mission? How many prospects should we be promoting each year and how many war should they be generating at the MLB level by what year to prove that our system is developing what it should be?
And finally what’s the ultimate point of developing and promoting of these prospects, if we eventually trade them before the next round of prospects we generate comes along, and we never reach critical mass?
Sounds like a AAAA farm team (PIT, COL) to me.
No they will spend once the team is close to competing. They have a plan in place for how they will handle the prospects and sign good prospects to extensions. If you think the cardinals are going to win anything by signing guys like Gibson and Lynn and they aren’t going to attract any good free agents because they can’t outbid the Yankees and dodgers and Mets and because they aren’t going to want to come to a team that has firmly established they are now a losing franchise. So complain all you want but it doesn’t change the fact they are now trying to fix mos mess and build a good winning team instead of sustaining mediocrity
Except we didn’t extend the best 2 prospects we developed this decade - Flaherty and Helsley. We just decided we wouldn’t extend them and traded them and then focused on how they weren’t good enough.
Yet we pretend like the next round of prospects magically won’t have any weaknesses???
You can’t have it both ways.
Have you not paid any attention to what’s been going on with the cardinals? Mo gutted the development system just trashed it. Bloom came in to fix it and brought in great baseball minds from organizations like Cleveland. If you think the cardinals could have thrived with a terrible development system not producing players then you’re insane. And you’re complaining about them trading Flaherty and helesley and not extending them? They suck. And who said they wouldn’t have any weaknesses? What is your big. Plan for the cardinals keep arenado who sucks and gray who is meh and sign some old veteran broken down pitchers and pray some how they compete?
2 things
1. Bloom could have been brought in to fix the MiLB programs without stopping nearly all spending at the MLB level. The cost of better coaches and consultants and analytics and iPads is a tiny fraction of one single market priced free agent. We have to stop pretending BDW couldn’t do both and maintain attendance if he’d wanted to.
2. You can’t blame the minor league system for Jack and Helsley. They were all stars. We should be celebrating that our system produced that. The minors had nothing to do with them falling off in performance in year 6. But even the best development program isn’t going to prevent the next round of prospects from also getting hurt by age 28 and suddenly “sucking”. That’s my whole point.
The same “expert” posters on this board who were so excited about Bloom and what his program is going to produce we’re excited about Jack and Noot and Donovan and others 5-7 years ago.
In a couple years Libby is going to go something like 3-8 or get hurt and also be on the verge of a $50-$100m contract. Burly will plateau and suddenly start requiring ARB level money. JJW, if he’s any good will require a 13 year contract for obscene amounts that no one here wants to spend because they still use 2016 costs as their mental anchoring point.
We can’t just keep pulling back and avoid all risks- the org is going to have to be both smart and aggressive or this minor league development program isn’t going to go the distance either. Without a commitment to spend in the right places and maybe even make a couple r calculated gambles that maybe don’t necessarily work out because the market requires it, we might simply produce a lot of talent that we refuse to keep around long enough to win because we don’t like the price tag, or the fact that they hit a rough stretch right before free agency.
Amen. The new Pirates. If DeWitt won’t spend to win, they won’t win.
They have to build a foundation before they can start spending.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 23:03 pm
I feel like there’s a very real danger this franchise never decides they have gotten to the point to go all in and invest in the present over the future
And even more, I suspect at least a number of posters would be OK with that. In that they value “prospects” more for their prospect status than for what they ever actually do as proven veterans.
Suppose we do trade Gray and Nado this winter for the proverbial bucket of balls and salary relief. What would we even reinvest the money in? Probably nothing, and again some would be fine with that because there will be no “good deals” in the ever inflating market of free agency.
As soon as that’s over, they will turn their attention to trading Donovan and Noot because, well, they’ve gotten to an age where they might not get any better. The focus is not on what they can or can’t contribute at a positive war level, but rather on their trajectory of future improvement. Then what’s next? Will they lose interest in Libby in another year or two when his arbitration salary hits 6 million and he approaches Free Agency? Should Winn be traded before he hits 27 and risks losing trade value? Is JoJo traded for a nobody prospect because he has “value” and might fetch even less than that nobody if we wait?
The problem here is it’s always about maximizing trade value relative to that single players future trade value and not relative to what they can actually produce for us. And there’s no serious consideration to whether we can get anything back that actually makes us better. Just an assumption that a shotgun approach to hording random prospects will somehow work out better than not having prospects.
At what point will those prospect addicts become willing to actually spend the cache of prospects to suddenly buy a proven producer of wins on the field at the MLB level? Even if that producer is gasp! 30 years old?
At what point do we say the future is now let’s go for it? To them there is no answer, they just say it isn’t *Now and next year they will sing the same song.
Well the only way for the cardinals to get good again is to fix the mess of a system that mo left and develop players that are good. The cardinals don’t have the money to spend their way out of the mess mo left. People are delusional if they think they can spend a little money and get good again at best they would be around .500 again and miss the play offs again. I’m tired of the sustained mediocrity that some on here want to perpetuate by keeping mos awful approach going I want them to build a team that can be good. Is there a danger it won’t work? Yea but not as near of a certainty as keeping sustained mediocrity going will never win anything
Meanwhile where are the metrics to tell if we are succeeding or failing in this mission? How many prospects should we be promoting each year and how many war should they be generating at the MLB level by what year to prove that our system is developing what it should be?
And finally what’s the ultimate point of developing and promoting of these prospects, if we eventually trade them before the next round of prospects we generate comes along, and we never reach critical mass?
Sounds like a AAAA farm team (PIT, COL) to me.
No they will spend once the team is close to competing. They have a plan in place for how they will handle the prospects and sign good prospects to extensions. If you think the cardinals are going to win anything by signing guys like Gibson and Lynn and they aren’t going to attract any good free agents because they can’t outbid the Yankees and dodgers and Mets and because they aren’t going to want to come to a team that has firmly established they are now a losing franchise. So complain all you want but it doesn’t change the fact they are now trying to fix mos mess and build a good winning team instead of sustaining mediocrity
Except we didn’t extend the best 2 prospects we developed this decade - Flaherty and Helsley. We just decided we wouldn’t extend them and traded them and then focused on how they weren’t good enough.
Yet we pretend like the next round of prospects magically won’t have any weaknesses???
You can’t have it both ways.
Have you not paid any attention to what’s been going on with the cardinals? Mo gutted the development system just trashed it. Bloom came in to fix it and brought in great baseball minds from organizations like Cleveland. If you think the cardinals could have thrived with a terrible development system not producing players then you’re insane. And you’re complaining about them trading Flaherty and helesley and not extending them? They suck. And who said they wouldn’t have any weaknesses? What is your big. Plan for the cardinals keep arenado who sucks and gray who is meh and sign some old veteran broken down pitchers and pray some how they compete?
2 things
1. Bloom could have been brought in to fix the MiLB programs without stopping nearly all spending at the MLB level. The cost of better coaches and consultants and analytics and iPads is a tiny fraction of one single market priced free agent. We have to stop pretending BDW couldn’t do both and maintain attendance if he’d wanted to.
2. You can’t blame the minor league system for Jack and Helsley. They were all stars. We should be celebrating that our system produced that. The minors had nothing to do with them falling off in performance in year 6. But even the best development program isn’t going to prevent the next round of prospects from also getting hurt by age 28 and suddenly “sucking”. That’s my whole point.
The same “expert” posters on this board who were so excited about Bloom and what his program is going to produce we’re excited about Jack and Noot and Donovan and others 5-7 years ago.
In a couple years Libby is going to go something like 3-8 or get hurt and also be on the verge of a $50-$100m contract. Burly will plateau and suddenly start requiring ARB level money. JJW, if he’s any good will require a 13 year contract for obscene amounts that no one here wants to spend because they still use 2016 costs as their mental anchoring point.
We can’t just keep pulling back and avoid all risks- the org is going to have to be both smart and aggressive or this minor league development program isn’t going to go the distance either. Without a commitment to spend in the right places and maybe even make a couple r calculated gambles that maybe don’t necessarily work out because the market requires it, we might simply produce a lot of talent that we refuse to keep around long enough to win because we don’t like the price tag, or the fact that they hit a rough stretch right before free agency.
Amen. The new Pirates. If DeWitt won’t spend to win, they won’t win.
They have to build a foundation before they can start spending.
Yea I don’t get where people get this the cardinals won’t spend they are just making that up. Spending on this team is like having a junker of a car with no motor and saying we have to spend money to buy it some new rims! Yea you can spend and get it new rims but it’s still a junker that won’t get you anywhere
rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:29 am
BDWJr is going to see a decrease in his franchise value after losing 1M in attendance.
And it's going to fall below 2M in 2026 unless C. Bloom can pull of some miracle trades and his revamped minor league system churns out some truly impactful players.
I don't think Bill wants to see hundreds of millions of dollars in capital gains just fade away, he'll spend again after the new CBA is in place.
JMO
Bill could and should deal with future uncertainty now instead of doing nothing. Get creative. Sign fan draw players in 2026 with team options for 2027 and beyond. That gives us the best of both worlds. Higher ticket sales now and the ability to bail in 2027 if the new CBA is somehow untenable for ownership.
Though I don’t see how it can be that bad. There’s just some universes that will never exist.
No argument here carp.
But I've watched this guy now for over a quarter of a century and know how he operates.
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
The psychological switch that some fans need to flip is that you have to build your foundation of ~18 young, cost controlled players FIRST and then spend to add ~7 expensive veterans to fill whatever holes you have instead of spend to acquire your ~7 "name" expensive veterans and then hope the minor league system can deliver enough talent to help them win.
That is particularly true since, when you are acquiring expensive veteran players, they are likely to be better at the beginning of the multiyear contract that you will need to sign them to than toward the end.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 12:54 pm
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
The psychological switch that some fans need to flip is that you have to build your foundation of ~18 young, cost controlled players FIRST and then spend to add ~7 expensive veterans to fill whatever holes you have instead of spend to acquire your ~7 "name" expensive veterans and then hope the minor league system can deliver enough talent to help them win.
That is particularly true since, when you are acquiring expensive veteran players, they are likely to be better at the beginning of the multiyear contract that you will need to sign them to than toward the end.
Trouble with that strategy is the assumption that "when and if" Bill ever gets ready to spend and get back to that 10th payroll level, the fans ticket sales can still support that If we go thru 6 straight seasons without playoffs. There is a very real possibility that this alienates a generation of STL Cardinals fans and they DON'T automatically come back when Bill wants to flip the switch. And therefore, he may never flip that switch.
86 wins and at least a few wild cards games with extra ticket sales will do a lot more for supporting both current and future payroll than winning only 75 games can.
Meanwhile the minor league system needs to take care of itself by independent focus. It doesn't need to be one or the other. Yes Mo neglected it, but we don't have to neglect the currect MLB roster in order to also focus on the minors. MiLB development really doesn't need to cost that much.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 12:54 pm
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
The psychological switch that some fans need to flip is that you have to build your foundation of ~18 young, cost controlled players FIRST and then spend to add ~7 expensive veterans to fill whatever holes you have instead of spend to acquire your ~7 "name" expensive veterans and then hope the minor league system can deliver enough talent to help them win.
That is particularly true since, when you are acquiring expensive veteran players, they are likely to be better at the beginning of the multiyear contract that you will need to sign them to than toward the end.
Trouble with that strategy is the assumption that "when and if" Bill ever gets ready to spend and get back to that 10th payroll level, the fans ticket sales can still support that If we go thru 6 straight seasons without playoffs. There is a very real possibility that this alienates a generation of STL Cardinals fans and they DON'T automatically come back when Bill wants to flip the switch. And therefore, he may never flip that switch.
86 wins and at least a few wild cards games with extra ticket sales will do a lot more for supporting both current and future payroll than winning only 75 games can.
Meanwhile the minor league system needs to take care of itself by independent focus. It doesn't need to be one or the other. Yes Mo neglected it, but we don't have to neglect the currect MLB roster in order to also focus on the minors. MiLB development really doesn't need to cost that much.
Astros fans came back.
Braves fans came back.
Phillies fans came back.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 12:54 pm
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
The psychological switch that some fans need to flip is that you have to build your foundation of ~18 young, cost controlled players FIRST and then spend to add ~7 expensive veterans to fill whatever holes you have instead of spend to acquire your ~7 "name" expensive veterans and then hope the minor league system can deliver enough talent to help them win.
That is particularly true since, when you are acquiring expensive veteran players, they are likely to be better at the beginning of the multiyear contract that you will need to sign them to than toward the end.
Trouble with that strategy is the assumption that "when and if" Bill ever gets ready to spend and get back to that 10th payroll level, the fans ticket sales can still support that If we go thru 6 straight seasons without playoffs. There is a very real possibility that this alienates a generation of STL Cardinals fans and they DON'T automatically come back when Bill wants to flip the switch. And therefore, he may never flip that switch.
86 wins and at least a few wild cards games with extra ticket sales will do a lot more for supporting both current and future payroll than winning only 75 games can.
Meanwhile the minor league system needs to take care of itself by independent focus. It doesn't need to be one or the other. Yes Mo neglected it, but we don't have to neglect the currect MLB roster in order to also focus on the minors. MiLB development really doesn't need to cost that much.
Astros fans came back.
Braves fans came back.
Phillies fans came back.
Are Cardinals fans worse than them?
I agree with your premise of a multi-year rebuild. But you are comparing St. Louis with three of the top ten metros in America. The St. Louis fanbase is less wealthy and dispersed over a larger area. It's a counterpoint that makes the DeWitts strive for kinda sorta contention.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 12:54 pm
I think we all agree that - after they go through a rebuilding phase of, maybe, 2, 3, or 4 years of lowered payrolls and losing seasons - if/when they get the minor league system reset and have the necessary foundation of young, cost controlled players on the ML roster, in order to then have success and sustain it, payroll needs to come back up to the Cardinals traditional range of 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.
But without a foundation of young, cost controlled players and a healthy minor league system, spending now just gets you mired in mediocrity - winning like between 76 and 86 games a year.
The psychological switch that some fans need to flip is that you have to build your foundation of ~18 young, cost controlled players FIRST and then spend to add ~7 expensive veterans to fill whatever holes you have instead of spend to acquire your ~7 "name" expensive veterans and then hope the minor league system can deliver enough talent to help them win.
That is particularly true since, when you are acquiring expensive veteran players, they are likely to be better at the beginning of the multiyear contract that you will need to sign them to than toward the end.
Trouble with that strategy is the assumption that "when and if" Bill ever gets ready to spend and get back to that 10th payroll level, the fans ticket sales can still support that If we go thru 6 straight seasons without playoffs. There is a very real possibility that this alienates a generation of STL Cardinals fans and they DON'T automatically come back when Bill wants to flip the switch. And therefore, he may never flip that switch.
86 wins and at least a few wild cards games with extra ticket sales will do a lot more for supporting both current and future payroll than winning only 75 games can.
Meanwhile the minor league system needs to take care of itself by independent focus. It doesn't need to be one or the other. Yes Mo neglected it, but we don't have to neglect the currect MLB roster in order to also focus on the minors. MiLB development really doesn't need to cost that much.
I don't feel like this team would be far off from 86 wins next season, if they made the moves within their grasp. Just thinking about the moves they could have made to shake a few more wins out of this season (McGreevy over Fedde from the start, Fedde traded last off-season, call up Wetherholt in July). If they play the cards they have a little better next year I don't see why they couldn't win more. That means they have to make the trades this offseason that they need to make. They're going to have to go outside the organization for Starting Pitching for 2026, that's inevitable.
They need to keep their hot bed of position player depth. That way they can try best they can in another year to trade for pitching. Before they want to contend, they will have to acquire 1-2 veteran mainstay type SP's. Keep the position player depth together through 2026 though. Most teams get more War from their position player side than the pitching side. Seems to me you can patch up the pitching as you go, but a deep offense and core offensive players in their prime years are hard to come by. Let's hope Wetherholt, Baez, Herrera, (and Rainiel Rodriguez or Deniel Ortiz) have the potential to become some of those pieces.
