Mistrust?

[HorseTrader]

In the last couple days I've read the following:

1. Oli and Brown go on radio and "criticize" Walker for lack of preparation.

2. Walker has been listening to Winn for hitting advice.

3. Gorman is being advised by Arenado for defensive tips at 3b.

Im all for teamwork and players helping each other. Kudos to these guys. But is this a signal that maybe they aren't getting enough or proper coaching from the staff? Or they distrust the staff?

It was posted a while back that Brown doesn't work on mechanics. Im guessing he's a video and analytics type of instructor?

Didn't #1 kinda come up in the past, once when I think Oli made a comment that Walker had finally totally bought into the process. Also a year so ago when he was sent to AAA and there was talk that he maybe wasn't really wanting to make the adjustments they were recommending. Am I remembering that more or less right? If so, it's time for him to go to a team who he will work for.

#2 I really don't have a problem with players going to friends, family for advise. That's been going on for ever.

#3 Good for both Gorman for accepting and Arenado for giving help.

[Bob Kunush]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

Uhhh no. If a player is slumping, the relevant coach should be working with them to figure it out. The coach should be presenting tweaks to the batting stance or pitching delivery. Maybe they could be coming up with mental challenges to help get the player out of their head. Things like that.

If the players aren't getting that, or don't feel what they are getting is helping, I can't blame them for exploring other avenues. And it definitely suggests failure on the part of the coaching staff.

So in your mind the failure of the player is on the coaches but the player is blameless? Maybe he just isn't going to cut it as a major league player. It happens all the time to players who have talent but lack the instincts to adjust. Walker would not be the first prospect to fail. Baseball is littered with them.

So many of you have an agenda against the staff and see everything that happens through that lens. You lack objectivity. Walker has had dozens of people try to help him. He does not seem to possess a concept of the strike zone and that is on him.

No.

There's gray here. The poster I responded to seemed to think the coaches were blameless. You seem to think the player deserves 100% of the blame, which means you view it the same as the other poster.

My view is both the players and coaches deserve some of the blame. These guys have spent a great deal of their lives mashing baseballs with ease. When it suddenly stops coming easy, they need a support system to help them make adjustments and figure it out.

If that isn't happening, that's a failure on the coaching staff. If it is happening and the player isn't hearing it, that's a failure on the player. My take is the coaches likely are trying and the player may be open to receiving it, but for whatever reason it isn't getting through. Perhaps both sides need to explore other methods to deliver the message. A sign of this would be that a player is seeking out other voices.

Coaches, like teachers and bosses, must understand that all players are different and a style that works with one may not work with another. If they can't adapt accordingly, coaching probably isn't for them.

I sure do hope this is objective enough for you.

Walker has had a lot of people try different things with him. Not just this current staff. Ryan Ludwick helped Victor Scott but couldn't do a thing to help Walker and admitted it. Walker has great physical skills. Adjusting to what the pitcher is trying to do to him is not one of them. You are saying that all of these different coa hes and approaches failed Walker? It appears at this point in his career Walker is most responsible for failing Walker. I hope he finds what is missing. He seems like a good young man and he has great bat speed and physical talents. We need him to succeed bit time is growing short.

[JuanAgosto]

In the last couple days I've read the following:

1. Oli and Brown go on radio and "criticize" Walker for lack of preparation.

2. Walker has been listening to Winn for hitting advice.

3. Gorman is being advised by Arenado for defensive tips at 3b.

Im all for teamwork and players helping each other. Kudos to these guys. But is this a signal that maybe they aren't getting enough or proper coaching from the staff? Or they distrust the staff?

It was posted a while back that Brown doesn't work on mechanics. Im guessing he's a video and analytics type of instructor?

Didn't #1 kinda come up in the past, once when I think Oli made a comment that Walker had finally totally bought into the process. Also a year so ago when he was sent to AAA and there was talk that he maybe wasn't really wanting to make the adjustments they were recommending. Am I remembering that more or less right? If so, it's time for him to go to a team who he will work for.

#2 I really don't have a problem with players going to friends, family for advise. That's been going on for ever.

#3 Good for both Gorman for accepting and Arenado for giving help.

I agree on points 2 and 3. As i stated, I see no problem with teammates helping each other. I was just questioning if the coaching staff does or does not point these things out, teach them, or work on it at all?

As for the first point, it has been talked about in the past. Walker was reluctant when the coaching "adjustments " led to no success.

[CorneliusWolfe]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

True but remember, when Gray came here he let Mozeliak know about the "missing personnel." What do you think that personnel does in other organizations?

Training and refinement for sure, but Sonny Gray knows how to play and what to do and it’s been obvious from the start of his career that he belonged in MLB, regardless of any coaching staff and their ability or inability to teach. Many of these young players just don’t seem like they belong or are not ready. They need more than tweaking, they look completely lost and overmatched.

[sdaltons]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

True but remember, when Gray came here he let Mozeliak know about the "missing personnel." What do you think that personnel does in other organizations?

Training and refinement for sure, but Sonny Gray knows how to play and what to do and it’s been obvious from the start of his career that he belonged in MLB, regardless of any coaching staff and their ability or inability to teach. Many of these young players just don’t seem like they belong or are not ready. They need more than tweaking, they look completely lost and overmatched.

So then the failure is on the minor league staff? Or the front office for promoting these players in spite of the shortcomings?

[CorneliusWolfe]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

Uhhh no. If a player is slumping, the relevant coach should be working with them to figure it out. The coach should be presenting tweaks to the batting stance or pitching delivery. Maybe they could be coming up with mental challenges to help get the player out of their head. Things like that.

If the players aren't getting that, or don't feel what they are getting is helping, I can't blame them for exploring other avenues. And it definitely suggests failure on the part of the coaching staff.

So in your mind the failure of the player is on the coaches but the player is blameless? Maybe he just isn't going to cut it as a major league player. It happens all the time to players who have talent but lack the instincts to adjust. Walker would not be the first prospect to fail. Baseball is littered with them.

So many of you have an agenda against the staff and see everything that happens through that lens. You lack objectivity. Walker has had dozens of people try to help him. He does not seem to possess a concept of the strike zone and that is on him.

No.

There's gray here. The poster I responded to seemed to think the coaches were blameless. You seem to think the player deserves 100% of the blame, which means you view it the same as the other poster.

My view is both the players and coaches deserve some of the blame. These guys have spent a great deal of their lives mashing baseballs with ease. When it suddenly stops coming easy, they need a support system to help them make adjustments and figure it out.

If that isn't happening, that's a failure on the coaching staff. If it is happening and the player isn't hearing it, that's a failure on the player. My take is the coaches likely are trying and the player may be open to receiving it, but for whatever reason it isn't getting through. Perhaps both sides need to explore other methods to deliver the message. A sign of this would be that a player is seeking out other voices.

Coaches, like teachers and bosses, must understand that all players are different and a style that works with one may not work with another. If they can't adapt accordingly, coaching probably isn't for them.

I sure do hope this is objective enough for you.

I definitely didn’t mean to imply the coaches were blameless. There is a high skill level required for their jobs too, but that can only do so much. What can any good coach, regardless of their own strengths and weaknesses, do with a guy who just isn’t good enough, or even worse, won’t apply themselves and do their part to get better. Too much sympathy for lack of talent and/or work ethic for professional sports IMO.

[CorneliusWolfe]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

True but remember, when Gray came here he let Mozeliak know about the "missing personnel." What do you think that personnel does in other organizations?

Training and refinement for sure, but Sonny Gray knows how to play and what to do and it’s been obvious from the start of his career that he belonged in MLB, regardless of any coaching staff and their ability or inability to teach. Many of these young players just don’t seem like they belong or are not ready. They need more than tweaking, they look completely lost and overmatched.

So then the failure is on the minor league staff? Or the front office for promoting these players in spite of the shortcomings?

If I had to assign blame beyond a player who is called out publicly for not doing their job? I’d say the Minor League coaches, and the front office, as you mentioned.

The best teachers should be in the minors and best leaders/baseball minds in MLB.

[CorneliusWolfe]

MLB is not an instructional league. It’s supposed to be about production and winning. In the not so distant past, if you weren’t good enough you didn’t get to hang around like a useless (redacted).

The coaches are here to game plan and their necks are in the line if they get out-coached. They don’t have time to give A-ball lessons to dumb (bleep) who have not yet grasped the nuances of the game or are too lazy to be a professional and work on their own obvious weaknesses.

Uhhh no. If a player is slumping, the relevant coach should be working with them to figure it out. The coach should be presenting tweaks to the batting stance or pitching delivery. Maybe they could be coming up with mental challenges to help get the player out of their head. Things like that.

If the players aren't getting that, or don't feel what they are getting is helping, I can't blame them for exploring other avenues. And it definitely suggests failure on the part of the coaching staff.

So in your mind the failure of the player is on the coaches but the player is blameless? Maybe he just isn't going to cut it as a major league player. It happens all the time to players who have talent but lack the instincts to adjust. Walker would not be the first prospect to fail. Baseball is littered with them.

So many of you have an agenda against the staff and see everything that happens through that lens. You lack objectivity. Walker has had dozens of people try to help him. He does not seem to possess a concept of the strike zone and that is on him.

No.

There's gray here. The poster I responded to seemed to think the coaches were blameless. You seem to think the player deserves 100% of the blame, which means you view it the same as the other poster.

My view is both the players and coaches deserve some of the blame. These guys have spent a great deal of their lives mashing baseballs with ease. When it suddenly stops coming easy, they need a support system to help them make adjustments and figure it out.

If that isn't happening, that's a failure on the coaching staff. If it is happening and the player isn't hearing it, that's a failure on the player. My take is the coaches likely are trying and the player may be open to receiving it, but for whatever reason it isn't getting through. Perhaps both sides need to explore other methods to deliver the message. A sign of this would be that a player is seeking out other voices.

Coaches, like teachers and bosses, must understand that all players are different and a style that works with one may not work with another. If they can't adapt accordingly, coaching probably isn't for them.

I sure do hope this is objective enough for you.

Walker has had a lot of people try different things with him. Not just this current staff. Ryan Ludwick helped Victor Scott but couldn't do a thing to help Walker and admitted it. Walker has great physical skills. Adjusting to what the pitcher is trying to do to him is not one of them. You are saying that all of these different coa hes and approaches failed Walker? It appears at this point in his career Walker is most responsible for failing Walker. I hope he finds what is missing. He seems like a good young man and he has great bat speed and physical talents. We need him to succeed bit time is growing short.

100% agree on all points. I’m glad you’re here, Bob. It’s not easy taking on the majority on this one lol!

[rightthinker4]

In the last couple days I've read the following:

1. Oli and Brown go on radio and "criticize" Walker for lack of preparation.

2. Walker has been listening to Winn for hitting advice.

3. Gorman is being advised by Arenado for defensive tips at 3b.

Im all for teamwork and players helping each other. Kudos to these guys. But is this a signal that maybe they aren't getting enough or proper coaching from the staff? Or they distrust the staff?

It was posted a while back that Brown doesn't work on mechanics. Im guessing he's a video and analytics type of instructor?

Why listen to Winn? He isn’t exactly tearing the cover off the ball.

[JuanAgosto]

In the last couple days I've read the following:

1. Oli and Brown go on radio and "criticize" Walker for lack of preparation.

2. Walker has been listening to Winn for hitting advice.

3. Gorman is being advised by Arenado for defensive tips at 3b.

Im all for teamwork and players helping each other. Kudos to these guys. But is this a signal that maybe they aren't getting enough or proper coaching from the staff? Or they distrust the staff?

It was posted a while back that Brown doesn't work on mechanics. Im guessing he's a video and analytics type of instructor?

Why listen to Winn? He isn’t exactly tearing the cover off the ball.

Friendship and familiarity breeds trust.

[blackinkbiz]

I think the situation is as simple as Walker's swing was not ready for MLB, as was publicly stated one month into his rookie campaign. He initially refused to modify it, then realized the modification was warranted. And as someone else said, MLB is NOT an instructional league. The blame goes full circle because quite simply, he should have NEVER been in MLB until this problem was fixed and he and his MLB-ready-revamped-swing dominated AAA for an extended amount of time.

This whole situation is just a major faux pas all the way around.

[JuanAgosto]

I think the situation is as simple as Walker's swing was not ready for MLB, as was publicly stated one month into his rookie campaign. He initially refused to modify it, then realized the modification was warranted. And as someone else said, MLB is NOT an instructional league. The blame goes full circle because quite simply, he should have NEVER been in MLB until this problem was fixed and he and his MLB-ready-revamped-swing dominated AAA for an extended amount of time.

This whole situation is just a major faux pas all the way around.

He was rushed to StL because dumb (donkey) Mozeliak didn't have a starting outfielder. More Mozeliak buffoonery. Lazy and ignorant.