What has been learned in 2025 by this group of players

[Cranny]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

Skid row?? LOL.

[11WSChamps]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

Skid row?? LOL.

A small step ahead of the Pirates isn't exactly where anyone in their right mind believes where this franchise should be.

[Bully4you]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

Skid row?? LOL.

When you only have 17,000 people show up to watch, then yes, you might be teetering to skid row.

[Bully4you]

What has been learned?
1. TOXIC CULTURE
2. The Marmot and his staff must be fired.
3. Winn, Gorman, Burleson, and McGreevy are the keepers from the young crop.
4. Donovan and Contreras are the only dependable veteran position players.
5. Mootbaar, Herrera, and Pallante are just warm bodies and will never be key pieces.
6. Playing N/A was a disaster.
7. Mikolas would be awful but play because of his contract - as was made clear in spring training.
8. Scott and Walker are still question marks.
9. The team is short one RH hitting corner middle order outfield bat and 2 starting pitchers.
Of course, none of that was truly "learned" over the past 130 games.
It was simply revealed.
I said every bit of it repeatedly and it all proved to be correct.

So, 1 RH hitting middle order outfielder and 2 starters rights this wrong.
Well, I should say obtaining new manager as well.
Those 4 transactions will change this to a respectable team.
Maybe your right.
It depends on who you get.
So, who would you get?
How sure are you to then get them?

[Bob Kunush]

Positives:

-Winn has become an elite defensive SS but lacks the offensive skills that could make him an all-star

-Hererra & Burleson can hit but neither has a field position

-Gorman (last 200 PA's: 12 HR/.353 OB%/.491Slg%/.845/OPS) is coming around, he's a keeper and the only true power bat in the organization but like Hererra & Burly he has no real field position (he's been awful at 3rd base, okay at 2B)

-WillyC has played well at 1st base and continues to be a solid hitter

-Libby & McG gives the rotation two young #3/4 starters to build around

-The bullpen


Negatives:

-No star players

-Starting pitching reeks............ as Gray ages leaving the team w/NO FOTR starter

-The OF has been Mo's biggest failure now for too many seasons, WEAK

-Walker is a BUST

-Pallante needs to be DFA'd

-Oli must go

I'm not as high on Libbey and McGreevy.
They aren't that great and Pallante was actually better than them a year or two ago.
Gorman, Herrera, Burleson and Contreras are really all DH's.
None are any good on the field.
We have a couple of guys with speed, but they can't get on base.
Just a [fustercluck] of a team.

Contreras has been very good defensively at first and Burleson is much improved in the field. Look it up. Your negativity has blinded your objectivity.

[Rojo Johnson]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

Looking at your post, I think a fitting remembrance of Moe is to name a street after him. Something highly descriptive of his abilities as a baseball man and what he is leaving St. Louis in a few weeks. Skid Row. As Melville would say ”the perfect name” considering what he has done to the org, the city, the fans and some of the players who deserve to be here.

[Melville]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

It's shocking how far they've fallen.
Heads should roll.
The people know, because they don't show up anymore.
Gonna be a long haul to fix this thing.

Any competent person could fix the team in under 30 days.
I could - quite easily.

Come on.
That's disingenuous.
God himself couldn't fix this disaster in a year, let alone 30 days.

Yes, I could.
It really is not difficult.
Any competent person could do so.
All that is required is the skill and the will.
Super Slo Mo possesses neither.
We are about to find out if Bloom does.

I’m guessing you could also end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours and lower inflation on Day 1. It’s amazing you don’t have a front office job in MLB.

Only a fool would make such claims - and did.
The Cardinal roster mess is actually far less complex and ridiculously easy to solve.
I could probably fix it in 15 days (as could any competent leader), but 30 days would provide a better opportunity.
I would say Nov.15 - Dec. 15 would be an ideal time frame.

[Melville]

What has been learned?
1. TOXIC CULTURE
2. The Marmot and his staff must be fired.
3. Winn, Gorman, Burleson, and McGreevy are the keepers from the young crop.
4. Donovan and Contreras are the only dependable veteran position players.
5. Mootbaar, Herrera, and Pallante are just warm bodies and will never be key pieces.
6. Playing N/A was a disaster.
7. Mikolas would be awful but play because of his contract - as was made clear in spring training.
8. Scott and Walker are still question marks.
9. The team is short one RH hitting corner middle order outfield bat and 2 starting pitchers.
Of course, none of that was truly "learned" over the past 130 games.
It was simply revealed.
I said every bit of it repeatedly and it all proved to be correct.

So, 1 RH hitting middle order outfielder and 2 starters rights this wrong.
Well, I should say obtaining new manager as well.
Those 4 transactions will change this to a respectable team.
Maybe your right.
It depends on who you get.
So, who would you get?
How sure are you to then get them?

One RH hitting middle order outfielder and 2 starters would not completely right the ship.
But that - and running The Marmot and his crew out of town - would make the rest quite easily accomplished.
As to how to do so?
Stay tuned.
I will provide the roadmap in due time.

[rockondlouie]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

Looking at your post, I think a fitting remembrance of Moe is to name a street after him. Something highly descriptive of his abilities as a baseball man and what he is leaving St. Louis in a few weeks. Skid Row. As Melville would say ”the perfect name” considering what he has done to the org, the city, the fans and some of the players who deserve to be here.

It would have to be a Dead End street?

[ICCFIM2]

Positives:

-Winn has become an elite defensive SS but lacks the offensive skills that could make him an all-star

-Hererra & Burleson can hit but neither has a field position

-Gorman (last 200 PA's: 12 HR/.353 OB%/.491Slg%/.845/OPS) is coming around, he's a keeper and the only true power bat in the organization but like Hererra & Burly he has no real field position (he's been awful at 3rd base, okay at 2B)

-WillyC has played well at 1st base and continues to be a solid hitter

-Libby & McG gives the rotation two young #3/4 starters to build around

-The bullpen


Negatives:

-No star players

-Starting pitching reeks............ as Gray ages leaving the team w/NO FOTR starter

-The OF has been Mo's biggest failure now for too many seasons, WEAK

-Walker is a BUST

-Pallante needs to be DFA'd

-Oli must go

I'm not as high on Libbey and McGreevy.
They aren't that great and Pallante was actually better than them a year or two ago.
Gorman, Herrera, Burleson and Contreras are really all DH's.
None are any good on the field.
We have a couple of guys with speed, but they can't get on base.
Just a [fustercluck] of a team.

Libby and McGreevy are fine for a #4 and #5. Assuming Doyle is a #1 or a #2 by 2027, the team still needs 2 more elite starting pitchers.

Burleson is fine in LF or RF. If they keep Gorman, then they are either trading Donovan or moving him to the OF. But, the really need a 30HR/100RBI guy in the middle of the line-up. I am not sure that Herrera can become that. I am not sure that Gorman can become that because of his high strike out rate. That argues for trading Gorman among others and getting that from the outside or hope that Baez is that in 2027.

The end result is that 2026 is likely to look a bit like 2025 with hopefully more clarity and hope going into 2027. By that, I mean, hopefully by mid/end of 2026 the Cards have Baez and Doyle in the MLs and there are signs they are legitimate players. If yes, there is more clarity and the shopping list is shorter. If not, then they are going into 2027 with the same ambiguity and a longer shopping list. If that is where the team is, it also argues for trading Donovan now, which I don't like as I think he best represents the traditional way of Cardinal baseball. Having that on the team is important.

[rockondlouie]

Positives:

-Winn has become an elite defensive SS but lacks the offensive skills that could make him an all-star

-Hererra & Burleson can hit but neither has a field position

-Gorman (last 200 PA's: 12 HR/.353 OB%/.491Slg%/.845/OPS) is coming around, he's a keeper and the only true power bat in the organization but like Hererra & Burly he has no real field position (he's been awful at 3rd base, okay at 2B)

-WillyC has played well at 1st base and continues to be a solid hitter

-Libby & McG gives the rotation two young #3/4 starters to build around

-The bullpen


Negatives:

-No star players

-Starting pitching reeks............ as Gray ages leaving the team w/NO FOTR starter

-The OF has been Mo's biggest failure now for too many seasons, WEAK

-Walker is a BUST

-Pallante needs to be DFA'd

-Oli must go

I'm not as high on Libbey and McGreevy.
They aren't that great and Pallante was actually better than them a year or two ago.
Gorman, Herrera, Burleson and Contreras are really all DH's.
None are any good on the field.
We have a couple of guys with speed, but they can't get on base.
Just a [fustercluck] of a team.

Libby and McGreevy are fine for a #4 and #5. Assuming Doyle is a #1 or a #2 by 2027, the team still needs 2 more elite starting pitchers.

Burleson is fine in LF or RF. If they keep Gorman, then they are either trading Donovan or moving him to the OF. But, the really need a 30HR/100RBI guy in the middle of the line-up. I am not sure that Herrera can become that. I am not sure that Gorman can become that because of his high strike out rate. That argues for trading Gorman among others and getting that from the outside or hope that Baez is that in 2027.

The end result is that 2026 is likely to look a bit like 2025 with hopefully more clarity and hope going into 2027. By that, I mean, hopefully by mid/end of 2026 the Cards have Baez and Doyle in the MLs and there are signs they are legitimate players. If yes, there is more clarity and the shopping list is shorter. If not, then they are going into 2027 with the same ambiguity and a longer shopping list. If that is where the team is, it also argues for trading Donovan now, which I don't like as I think he best represents the traditional way of Cardinal baseball. Having that on the team is important.

Gotta keep Gorman, he's really come on strong since June 1st.

I agree on dangling both Donny & Noot for starting pitching since Bloom needs to being in two (no way we want Pallante back in the SR).

Also agree, sadly 2026 will resemble 2025 unless Bloom can pull a couple rabbits out of his hat and BDWJr gives him some payroll to work with.

[ICCFIM2]

Positives:

-Winn has become an elite defensive SS but lacks the offensive skills that could make him an all-star

-Hererra & Burleson can hit but neither has a field position

-Gorman (last 200 PA's: 12 HR/.353 OB%/.491Slg%/.845/OPS) is coming around, he's a keeper and the only true power bat in the organization but like Hererra & Burly he has no real field position (he's been awful at 3rd base, okay at 2B)

-WillyC has played well at 1st base and continues to be a solid hitter

-Libby & McG gives the rotation two young #3/4 starters to build around

-The bullpen


Negatives:

-No star players

-Starting pitching reeks............ as Gray ages leaving the team w/NO FOTR starter

-The OF has been Mo's biggest failure now for too many seasons, WEAK

-Walker is a BUST

-Pallante needs to be DFA'd

-Oli must go

I'm not as high on Libbey and McGreevy.
They aren't that great and Pallante was actually better than them a year or two ago.
Gorman, Herrera, Burleson and Contreras are really all DH's.
None are any good on the field.
We have a couple of guys with speed, but they can't get on base.
Just a [fustercluck] of a team.

Libby and McGreevy are fine for a #4 and #5. Assuming Doyle is a #1 or a #2 by 2027, the team still needs 2 more elite starting pitchers.

Burleson is fine in LF or RF. If they keep Gorman, then they are either trading Donovan or moving him to the OF. But, the really need a 30HR/100RBI guy in the middle of the line-up. I am not sure that Herrera can become that. I am not sure that Gorman can become that because of his high strike out rate. That argues for trading Gorman among others and getting that from the outside or hope that Baez is that in 2027.

The end result is that 2026 is likely to look a bit like 2025 with hopefully more clarity and hope going into 2027. By that, I mean, hopefully by mid/end of 2026 the Cards have Baez and Doyle in the MLs and there are signs they are legitimate players. If yes, there is more clarity and the shopping list is shorter. If not, then they are going into 2027 with the same ambiguity and a longer shopping list. If that is where the team is, it also argues for trading Donovan now, which I don't like as I think he best represents the traditional way of Cardinal baseball. Having that on the team is important.

Gotta keep Gorman, he's really come on strong since June 1st.

I agree on dangling both Donny & Noot for starting pitching since Bloom needs to being in two (no way we want Pallante back in the SR).

Also agree, sadly 2026 will resemble 2025 unless Bloom can pull a couple rabbits out of his hat and BDWJr gives him some payroll to work with.

The Cardinals have interesting roster issues. If we keep both Gorman and Herrera, they both have to have positions they can play in the field. If the Cards are unable to trade Arenado and they keep Gorman, that means JJ plays 2B, Gorman is the DH and Herrera is playing LF. It also means they probably have to trade Donovan. In my mind, moving Arenado is an urgent issue and I would like to see JJ at 3B.

This will be the most interesting off season in many years. I don't think the Dewitt's are going to give Bloom more payroll. In fact, I think payroll will shrink. The only free agent additions I think they will make will be to provide innings to the extent they don't think they are available internally. I expect almost all the trades to be for near ML ready prospects. Near ML ready could either be 2026 or 2027.

[IndCard75]

I think what has been learned is we have a lot of good young support type players but we don’t have any elite players.
So unless ownership is going to spend on the Tucker types in FA this offseason we are probably destined for another 500 type season in 2026. If ownership isn’t going to spend then Bloom might as well trade Donovan and Nootbar this offseason. I would also be willing to trade Herrera. We have to many DH. A healthy Arenado next year improves the infield defense. Gorman hasn’t been good there.
Gorman is the DH. Wetherholt at 2B could help the offense but hitting in middle of order is a lot to ask out of a rookie. Libby and McG are 4/5 imo. Gray because of his contract is top 3. So we need 2 top of rotation SP. I don’t expect Doyle or Matthew’s to be contributors in 2026. Hopefully trading Donovan Noot and Herrera can get us immediate pitching help and Wetherholt is that middle order bat we need.

[WLTFE]

We are years away from being relevant.

Welcome to baseballs skid row.

+1...only 6 games ahead of the Pirates...a dreary, almost empty stadium and a boring, listless team...[fork] you very much DeTwit and Mo-ran.

[hugeCardfan]

A lot of the things mentioned weren’t learned, but givens.

CT is a great place to blow off steam and seems a drawing card for manic depressives.

The team remains a glass half full or half empty depending on outlook and/or expectations. The best news is we are a year closer. The farm has some exciting talent; a few pretty much ready and a few a year away. We have some pitching knocking on the door. McGreevy has already walked thru. Ixan and Mathews aren’t far away. The FA market can help.

JJ and Crooks are here. I can’t wait to see what we have with Baez and Bernal. Whining about things just isn’t productive.

[rockondlouie]

Positives:

-Winn has become an elite defensive SS but lacks the offensive skills that could make him an all-star

-Hererra & Burleson can hit but neither has a field position

-Gorman (last 200 PA's: 12 HR/.353 OB%/.491Slg%/.845/OPS) is coming around, he's a keeper and the only true power bat in the organization but like Hererra & Burly he has no real field position (he's been awful at 3rd base, okay at 2B)

-WillyC has played well at 1st base and continues to be a solid hitter

-Libby & McG gives the rotation two young #3/4 starters to build around

-The bullpen


Negatives:

-No star players

-Starting pitching reeks............ as Gray ages leaving the team w/NO FOTR starter

-The OF has been Mo's biggest failure now for too many seasons, WEAK

-Walker is a BUST

-Pallante needs to be DFA'd

-Oli must go

I'm not as high on Libbey and McGreevy.
They aren't that great and Pallante was actually better than them a year or two ago.
Gorman, Herrera, Burleson and Contreras are really all DH's.
None are any good on the field.
We have a couple of guys with speed, but they can't get on base.
Just a [fustercluck] of a team.

Libby and McGreevy are fine for a #4 and #5. Assuming Doyle is a #1 or a #2 by 2027, the team still needs 2 more elite starting pitchers.

Burleson is fine in LF or RF. If they keep Gorman, then they are either trading Donovan or moving him to the OF. But, the really need a 30HR/100RBI guy in the middle of the line-up. I am not sure that Herrera can become that. I am not sure that Gorman can become that because of his high strike out rate. That argues for trading Gorman among others and getting that from the outside or hope that Baez is that in 2027.

The end result is that 2026 is likely to look a bit like 2025 with hopefully more clarity and hope going into 2027. By that, I mean, hopefully by mid/end of 2026 the Cards have Baez and Doyle in the MLs and there are signs they are legitimate players. If yes, there is more clarity and the shopping list is shorter. If not, then they are going into 2027 with the same ambiguity and a longer shopping list. If that is where the team is, it also argues for trading Donovan now, which I don't like as I think he best represents the traditional way of Cardinal baseball. Having that on the team is important.

Gotta keep Gorman, he's really come on strong since June 1st.

I agree on dangling both Donny & Noot for starting pitching since Bloom needs to being in two (no way we want Pallante back in the SR).

Also agree, sadly 2026 will resemble 2025 unless Bloom can pull a couple rabbits out of his hat and BDWJr gives him some payroll to work with.

The Cardinals have interesting roster issues. If we keep both Gorman and Herrera, they both have to have positions they can play in the field. If the Cards are unable to trade Arenado and they keep Gorman, that means JJ plays 2B, Gorman is the DH and Herrera is playing LF. It also means they probably have to trade Donovan. In my mind, moving Arenado is an urgent issue and I would like to see JJ at 3B.

This will be the most interesting off season in many years. I don't think the Dewitt's are going to give Bloom more payroll. In fact, I think payroll will shrink. The only free agent additions I think they will make will be to provide innings to the extent they don't think they are available internally. I expect almost all the trades to be for near ML ready prospects. Near ML ready could either be 2026 or 2027.

I wonder if Bloom will go to WillyC again and ask him if he'd like to avoid this re-build and waive his NTC?

If so, then you can slide Gorman to 1st base (he's awful at 3rd), keep Burly in LF and Hererra at DH.

This also clears 3rd base for NADO if he won't waive (I think he will expand his NTC list of teams).

Either way, JJW is going to be the starting 2nd baseman w/Winn at SS.....that's a given.

Sadly I think you're right, the Dewitt's are going CHEAP.

But I hope we're wrong and Dewitt at least let's Bloom sign a couple one year deal FA's.

And if they do go cheap w/no additions, then they're looking at under 1.75M attendance.