Burleson is a star

[Talkin' Baseball]

His performance vs. his position leaves him coming up a little short. Where he really shines is in his performance vs. his contract. That will begin to change as he enters arbitration.

[bccardsfan]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

It all comes down to the fact that this team has horrible roster construction. We have all pointed this out numerous times. It has no anchor bat. OK, Pujols was a generational hitter and we don't expect him, but someone who a consistent threat in the middle of the order, who doesn't clog the basepaths, and is at least an average defender at his position, preferably corner OF. Guys like WC and Burley are complimentary pieces, they are not the bat you build the order around. Plus, we have a bunch of 1B/DH types. Need I list them all yet again? WC, Burley, Gorman, IH, etc... Gorman is not a good fielder, sorry. Burley catches everything he gets to, and has a pretty good arm, but he has limited range. He would actually be a pretty good first baseman if he just got to play there. Oh, but wait, you have WC there because he is a mediocre catcher and you don't want him injured. IH can't throw anyone out so he isn't the catcher. Gorman is a terrible third baseman, and barely adequate a 2B. JW has not yet developed into that corner OFer who can hit. Noot is oft injured and very inconsistent. Church actually looks like he should get a long look in CF, who knows. Winn is your anchor at SS, but he really should be a number 7 or 8 hitter. Saggese...meh defender, maybe will hit for average given some time. There are lots of complimentary pieces, but you need at least one core bat to make everyone better and Bloom needs to sort out all the redundancies. Burley is a good trade piece to do that. If you can get WC to waive his NT, then perhaps Burley is your first basemen for a while. Who knows, but this mess needs to be sorted out.

[hmoss859]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

Great analysis, spot on!

He could fetch a starting pitcher this winter if Bloom is smart

[rbirules]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

[Shady]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

It all comes down to the fact that this team has horrible roster construction. We have all pointed this out numerous times. It has no anchor bat. OK, Pujols was a generational hitter and we don't expect him, but someone who a consistent threat in the middle of the order, who doesn't clog the basepaths, and is at least an average defender at his position, preferably corner OF. Guys like WC and Burley are complimentary pieces, they are not the bat you build the order around. Plus, we have a bunch of 1B/DH types. Need I list them all yet again? WC, Burley, Gorman, IH, etc... Gorman is not a good fielder, sorry. Burley catches everything he gets to, and has a pretty good arm, but he has limited range. He would actually be a pretty good first baseman if he just got to play there. Oh, but wait, you have WC there because he is a mediocre catcher and you don't want him injured. IH can't throw anyone out so he isn't the catcher. Gorman is a terrible third baseman, and barely adequate a 2B. JW has not yet developed into that corner OFer who can hit. Noot is oft injured and very inconsistent. Church actually looks like he should get a long look in CF, who knows. Winn is your anchor at SS, but he really should be a number 7 or 8 hitter. Saggese...meh defender, maybe will hit for average given some time. There are lots of complimentary pieces, but you need at least one core bat to make everyone better and Bloom needs to sort out all the redundancies. Burley is a good trade piece to do that. If you can get WC to waive his NT, then perhaps Burley is your first basemen for a while. Who knows, but this mess needs to be sorted out.

"If you can get WC to waive his NT, then perhaps Burley is your first basemen for a while". That would be the way to go for the next four to six seasons.

[bccardsfan]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

Exactly. As I said above, we have a team full of role players and there is a lot of redundancy among them. Hopefully Bloom can find one good middle of the order hitter (or develop one) and some of the redundancy is cleared for places we have huge holes, like starting pitching. We shall see. As I said in the Winn thread, he has HUGE value as the anchor of your D. You just want him to hit #7 or 8, but our lineup is not good, so he hits higher up. Burleson may have the most value as a trade chip... maybe. Other teams can see who he is too.

[3dender]

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

Exactly. As I said above, we have a team full of role players and there is a lot of redundancy among them. Hopefully Bloom can find one good middle of the order hitter (or develop one) and some of the redundancy is cleared for places we have huge holes, like starting pitching. We shall see. As I said in the Winn thread, he has HUGE value as the anchor of your D. You just want him to hit #7 or 8, but our lineup is not good, so he hits higher up. Burleson may have the most value as a trade chip... maybe. Other teams can see who he is too.

Other teams may have a need at 1B/DH and therefore value Burleson higher than the Cards do (where he is redundant).

It's Bloom's job to identify those teams and make sure they understand we don't actually have to move Burly if we don't get a good offer.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Agree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

Exactly. As I said above, we have a team full of role players and there is a lot of redundancy among them. Hopefully Bloom can find one good middle of the order hitter (or develop one) and some of the redundancy is cleared for places we have huge holes, like starting pitching. We shall see. As I said in the Winn thread, he has HUGE value as the anchor of your D. You just want him to hit #7 or 8, but our lineup is not good, so he hits higher up. Burleson may have the most value as a trade chip... maybe. Other teams can see who he is too.

True, but other teams that need a 1b, or corner OF like Seattle, San Diego, Texas, Philadelphia, Toronto, etc... have the pieces to put around him so that he is playing his proper role. He is not the one being built around- he "completes" them. Much value in that.

[rockondlouie]

Chip said last night mid game the Burleson was one of five MLB players that have hit 270+ against both left handed pitching and right handed pitching. That makes him elite in 2025 season. The guy can hit.

Then of course all the folks that said he couldn't hit lefthanders raise your hands.

Nice to see him overcome his difficulties vs LHP.

My hands up but, well............maybe we should look at a larger sample size.......say his career vs LHP:

6 HR
.235 .266 .338 .605

[smilinjoefission]

Reminds me of a young Schwarber. Needs to get in better shape.

Schwarber is a K machine...Burley isn't. He's a Kruk-lite, just doesn't have the high batting average down yet, but he's working on it.

[ecleme22]

Reminds me of a young Schwarber. Needs to get in better shape.

Schwarber is a K machine...Burley isn't. He's a Kruk-lite, just doesn't have the high batting average down yet, but he's working on it.

Is there an ‘Intro to OBP Course’that we can share on CT?

[RamFan08NY]

No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

I guess I'm old time. I value a player by the stats you that you can see day in, day out. Batting avg, and RBI is what wins games. All of the different elements of the WAR trilogy are basically "what if" equations.

Give me a player that consistently hits .280 +. I dont care what his WAR is. Just get him more RBI situations. Until they change the rules, games are still won by runs scored. Haven't seen one yet that has been won because team "A" had better players vs replacement players. Otherwise, no need at all to even play the game.

And it then begs me to get an answer to this question. Why would you NOT value batting average? Give me a lineup with 7 players with a batting avg .280 +, and you've got a dominant team.

[ecleme22]

No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

I guess I'm old time. I value a player by the stats you that you can see day in, day out. Batting avg, and RBI is what wins games. All of the different elements of the WAR trilogy are basically "what if" equations.

Give me a player that consistently hits .280 +. I dont care what his WAR is. Just get him more RBI situations. Until they change the rules, games are still won by runs scored. Haven't seen one yet that has been won because team "A" had better players vs replacement players. Otherwise, no need at all to even play the game.

And it then begs me to get an answer to this question. Why would you NOT value batting average? Give me a lineup with 7 players with a batting avg .280 +, and you've got a dominant team.

Do you know OBP?

[dugoutrex]

lots on here think a walk isn't the same as a hit

[rbirules]

lots on here think a walk isn't the same as a hit

I don't think anybody on here thinks a walk is as good as a hit (except in very specific circumstances). But some on here seem to overlook the fact that a walk is much better than an out, and walking more often than not is a good thing as those other at bats are Ks or balls in play which are converted to outs 65-70% of the time.

[RamFan08NY]

No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

I guess I'm old time. I value a player by the stats you that you can see day in, day out. Batting avg, and RBI is what wins games. All of the different elements of the WAR trilogy are basically "what if" equations.

Give me a player that consistently hits .280 +. I dont care what his WAR is. Just get him more RBI situations. Until they change the rules, games are still won by runs scored. Haven't seen one yet that has been won because team "A" had better players vs replacement players. Otherwise, no need at all to even play the game.

And it then begs me to get an answer to this question. Why would you NOT value batting average? Give me a lineup with 7 players with a batting avg .280 +, and you've got a dominant team.

Do you know OBP?

Yes. I didn't mention OBP. You get the BA, and the OBP will follow. But I will say this. If there's a runner on second, with 2 outs, I dont want my best hitter up there looking for a walk. Living here in NY, I see a lot of Met games. I listen to the fans. Juan Soto frustrates the hell out of them. He does just that. He's a dangerous hitter, but he nit picks at the plate looking for the BB. As dangerous as he is, hes not getting paid 40 mil to lead the league in walks.