Concerned that Libby or McGreevey won't be quite good enough once the league figures them out?

[alw80]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

My takeaway from Carp's post is that neither of these guys gets a postseason start on a good playoff team. They each look like a #4 or #5 starter. Most of the Cards MLB roster look like complimentary pieces on a playoff roster. We used to be better at drafting and developing starting pitchers.

We were better at developing mid/back end rotation guys, never very good at top end rotation guys.

[scoutyjones2]

Libby threw 85 innings last year...he's at 126 now...

Each year his ERA hoes down

I suspect he continues to improve. He's a keeper.

[Carp4Cy]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

What you fail to mention is that, other than Martinez who had his own set of problems, each of these pitches faced significant injury problems following those seasons. Morris and Benes each missed more than an entire season immediately following those early successes. Wacha had shoulder trouble even while he was pitching well. Not saying that Liberatore and McGreevey won't face injury problems but it's not accurate to compare their development with these pitchers unless you include the information regarding their injury history, too.

Lance Lynn was a stud. He missed 1 year here came back and we never shoulda let him leave.

[Carp4Cy]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

Their serviceable pitchers and will be in the rotation sure. But the concern is that if they aren’t dominating the teams below 500 then we need somebody who can do that to actually have a good rotation. Where is that really going to come from?

Anyone can develop back of the rotation guys, but we need more. This organization used to develop guys who could pitch 175+ innings by their age 25 season and often win 15 to 18 games and get ROY or AS votes.

[rockondlouie]

I've said before Mo/Oli didn't return Libby to the starting rotation until the final week of STing.

Big difference in offseason training as a RP vs a SP.

Let's give Libby a break and let him have a full offseason training to make 30+ starts.

As for McG, he's going to be fine.

Not a TOTR starter but should be a solid #4/5 who does seem to have a knack for going close to six inning or more.

(And the guy the league figured out and who better NOT be in the 2026 SR is A. Pallante )

[Carp4Cy]

I've said before Mo/Oli didn't return Libby to the starting rotation until the final week of STing.

Big difference in offseason training as a RP vs a SP.

Let's give Libby a break and let him have a full offseason training to make 30+ starts.

As for McG, he's going to be fine.

Not a TOTR starter but should be a solid #4/5 who does seem to have a knack for going close to six inning or more.

(And the guy the league figured out and who better NOT be in the 2026 SR is A. Pallante )

Agree with your assessment. As you point out, we do different things in the development process then we used to and we used to get better results and a whole lot more innings out of our top young starters. So either our new process of trying guys for the bullpen doesn’t work or they just don’t have quite the same talent as our young starters did in their early 20s in previous generations? Or both.

You also have to be disappointed that High picks like Zack and hjerpe have gone nowhere.

We will get some quality starts from these two but we need a whole lot more. So Bloom will have his work cut out for him.

[Strummer Jones]

I think Liberatore'(poop) a wall. He's gotta be blowing past his career high for innings. If not, certainly the most innings he's thrown ever since he got up here. I'm not super worried about it. Also bear in mind that he pretty much came into the rotation with little/no stretching out. I think he started maybe one game in spring. I'd look to get him a couple more starts, but then I'd probably shut him down in the back half of September, or REALLY limit his innings to 4-5 a night. We can call someone up to piggyback off of him. I doubt it happens, but that would be an ideal assignment for Mathews.

McGreevy...it is what it is. I don't think he develops much more, but he's a fine #4/5. His issue is that he's basically the third best pitcher in the rotation right now.

[BrockFloodMaris]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

Mcg-First year. Ten starts. Fanned a personal high. A good performance. He’s a number 3/4. We take that.

The talent difference between pirates and Dodgers is razor thin. At this level, it’s truly a team event for success. More will than desire.

My takeaway from Carp's post is that neither of these guys gets a postseason start on a good playoff team. They each look like a #4 or #5 starter. Most of the Cards MLB roster look like complimentary pieces on a playoff roster. We used to be better at drafting and developing starting pitchers.

We were better at developing mid/back end rotation guys, never very good at top end rotation guys.

You are correct. I would put developing top end rotation guys as the #1 priority for Bloom and Cerfolio. Maybe Doyle, Franklin, Mathews???

[11WSChamps]

Its pretty safe to say the league has figured them out.

Libby has a higher ceiling and McGreevy is JAG.

[Cardinals4Life]

I think Liberatore'(poop) a wall. He's gotta be blowing past his career high for innings. If not, certainly the most innings he's thrown ever since he got up here. I'm not super worried about it. Also bear in mind that he pretty much came into the rotation with little/no stretching out. I think he started maybe one game in spring. I'd look to get him a couple more starts, but then I'd probably shut him down in the back half of September, or REALLY limit his innings to 4-5 a night. We can call someone up to piggyback off of him. I doubt it happens, but that would be an ideal assignment for Mathews.

McGreevy...it is what it is. I don't think he develops much more, but he's a fine #4/5. His issue is that he's basically the third best pitcher in the rotation right now.

I'd argue he's the best. Outside of Gray/McGreevy, I habe zero confidence we will have a chance to win.

[Cardinals4Life]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

McGreevy finds ways to keep his team in the ballgame. He is usually very efficient and can go deep into games (deeper of Marmol wouldn't be such an idiot!). He is a competitor. His stuff may not be #1 Ace material, but I love how he competes and gives his team a chance to win every time out. That's what a good SP should do!

[rockondlouie]

I've said before Mo/Oli didn't return Libby to the starting rotation until the final week of STing.

Big difference in offseason training as a RP vs a SP.

Let's give Libby a break and let him have a full offseason training to make 30+ starts.

As for McG, he's going to be fine.

Not a TOTR starter but should be a solid #4/5 who does seem to have a knack for going close to six inning or more.

(And the guy the league figured out and who better NOT be in the 2026 SR is A. Pallante )

Agree with your assessment. As you point out, we do different things in the development process then we used to and we used to get better results and a whole lot more innings out of our top young starters. So either our new process of trying guys for the bullpen doesn’t work or they just don’t have quite the same talent as our young starters did in their early 20s in previous generations? Or both.

You also have to be disappointed that High picks like Zack and hjerpe have gone nowhere.

We will get some quality starts from these two but we need a whole lot more. So Bloom will have his work cut out for him.

It will be interesting to see how our new POBO and (hopefully) his new Manager handle young starting pitchers when they come up.

BDWJr/Mo's neglect of the farm system, you have to wonder how many potential careers they wasted?

And 100% agree Carp, Bloom will be seeking SP's when he starts dealing off Noot or Donny or Burleson or Walker or Gorman or catchers or some combo of them.

[ilcubuffs]

I would wait to see IF Bloom is able to obtain a competent every day MLB catcher AND who is the new MLB competent pitching coach and pitching support group. BOTH moves could go along way in improving the pitching staff by improving performance and/or subtracting the pretenders.

Catcher: Short term deal while you develop Bernal and or Crooks
DIaz - SD
McCann - D Backs
Jansen - Rays
IF you want to go wild - Carson Kelly of Dubs

Pitching coach:

Prior of Dodgers
Hook of Brewers
Snyder of Rays

[Carp4Cy]

I would wait to see IF Bloom is able to obtain a competent every day MLB catcher AND who is the new MLB competent pitching coach and pitching support group. BOTH moves could go along way in improving the pitching staff by improving performance and/or subtracting the pretenders.

Catcher: Short term deal while you develop Bernal and or Crooks
DIaz - SD
McCann - D Backs
Jansen - Rays
IF you want to go wild - Carson Kelly of Dubs

Pitching coach:

Prior of Dodgers
Hook of Brewers
Snyder of Rays

Guessing Prior would be unable to also throw BP as some coaches do?

[scoutyjones2]

Even a #5 needs to be able to hold down the Pirates or the Rays. And neither one is 22.

Compare to

Matt Morris
age 22 12-9 3.19 ERA 217 IP

Alan Benes
age 24 13-10 4.90 ERA 191 IP AND
age 25 9-9 2.89 ERA

Carlos Martinez
Age 23 14-7 3.01 ERA 180 IP

Machael Wacha
Age 23 17-7 3.38 ERA

All younger than Libby and McGreevey and didn't fade in the 2nd half like Libby.

What you fail to mention is that, other than Martinez who had his own set of problems, each of these pitches faced significant injury problems following those seasons. Morris and Benes each missed more than an entire season immediately following those early successes. Wacha had shoulder trouble even while he was pitching well. Not saying that Liberatore and McGreevey won't face injury problems but it's not accurate to compare their development with these pitchers unless you include the information regarding their injury history, too.

Lance Lynn was a stud. He missed 1 year here came back and we never shoulda let him leave.

Yes. They did the correct thing, letting him go